Better Research Through Project Management - Dr. Jacquelyn Duvall

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello, and welcome to the Bench to Borfront podcast. I am your host, Cynthia Steele, and today's conversation is with my friend, Dr. Jacqueline DeValle, who is currently a GMP project manager at the Duke Vaccine Institute. Jacqueline has a PhD in chemistry from the University of Virginia, and her dissertation work was largely revolving around microfluidic. And as you'll hear, she feels like that doesn't really make her a bona fide chemistry major, whatever that means. But it's still a really fascinating line of work. A number of her colleagues went off to pursue careers in the Department of Defense or in Forensics because microfluidics apparently is used in those fields. I had no idea. But she instead went on to use her abilities in chemistry and in microfluidics to get her first job at a company called Cell Microsystems. She moved on to a company called Powered Research, which is where I met her. And during that time, Jacqueline got a project management certificate. So she is officially a project management professional or a PMP. And you'll hear her talk about why she got that certification, what the process was like, and what kind of career paths that has opened up for her since receiving that certification, and what kind of career paths that opens up for others who are interested in that same kind of certification. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Dr. Jacqueline Duvall. Dr. Jacqueline Duvall, welcome to the Bench to Boardroom podcast. [00:01:58] Speaker B: Hi. How are you? [00:01:59] Speaker A: Good to see you. [00:02:01] Speaker B: Good to see you, too, Cynthia. [00:02:02] Speaker A: So we worked together a few years ago when I was working at a small startup, biotech drug Discovery company. And you were working at one of our cros, right? [00:02:15] Speaker B: That's right. Yes. We worked together a little bit, yes. And I feel like you were one of the people that always responded really promptly when I liked to affectionately at the time, think of my job as kind of nagging our clients to respond to our requests, and you always responded in a very prompt manner, and I always enjoyed working with you for that exact reason, because you were prompt and you were friendly. So thank you for that. [00:02:42] Speaker A: Thank you. I think it's funny when you're doing things with a large group like bench research, and we'll get into it, but bench research, you're used to doing things on your own. This is like your time at the bench and your resources and your reagents and everything. But when you're working with a group, you forget, like, I need to update people as we go along. I need to make sure to let people know what I'm thinking and where my head is at. Because they're in a totally different state. They don't know. [00:03:10] Speaker B: They can't read my mind. That's wild. Yeah. [00:03:13] Speaker A: So for our listeners who don't know you or don't have the delight of knowing you yet, can you please introduce yourself? [00:03:19] Speaker B: Sure. So my name is Jacqueline Duvall, and my background, I guess my PhD is in chemistry from the University of Virginia. So I went to UVA for undergrad and grad school with a little bit of time off in between to have a little bit of fun before I went back for grad school, and I currently work at Duke University. So I'm at the Duke Human Vaccine Institute here in Durham, North Carolina, and I work as a project manager and scientific program leader in a few different capacities within the vaccine institute, or DHVI is what we call it internally, but that's where I am now. [00:04:03] Speaker A: And what was your PhD in? [00:04:06] Speaker B: My PhD was in chemistry, technically, although I've never really felt truly like a chemist, so I don't think that my PhD, my Pi's lab was not a typical chemistry lab in the way that most folks think about a chemistry lab. So the lab that I worked in, we focused more on microfluidic device development and point of care diagnostics. So, technically chemistry. But again, I just don't really think I've ever. I feel like a chemistry imposter. [00:04:50] Speaker A: Were you one of those people who understood where the electrons went and you could imagine the carbon going into the board? Because I was never one of those people. I couldn't do it. [00:05:00] Speaker B: I can say I'm one of those people who at least attempted to understand where they went. Yeah. Whether or not I always did. Yeah. It's hard to say, but. [00:05:09] Speaker A: I still sometimes have nightmares that I'm back in organic chemistry. And how does a primary alcohol interact with this molecule? And I'm like, I don't know. Why do I need to have this memorized? [00:05:22] Speaker B: Exactly. So that is not my type of chemistry. My husband is an organic chemist or was in a previous life, and he likes to give me a hard time about being a chemistry imposter. Yeah, I know. Oh, my God, it's true. [00:05:39] Speaker A: That's hilarious. Wow. I don't think I've ever thought about having two scientists in the house. Kind of like, playfully, you're not a. [00:05:47] Speaker B: Real chemist, but you're. I know. It's be a fly on the wall. [00:05:50] Speaker A: So that means your daughters are going to be artists, right? Since both of you are probably just. [00:05:55] Speaker B: To irk mom and Dad. They're going to be artists or something else that we totally don't understand, but we'll support it no matter what. [00:06:06] Speaker A: So microfluidics. The only thing I know about microfluidics is I watched the dropout and I read the book, and Elizabeth Holmes was talking about microfluidics. Describe that a little bit more to me, just out of my own personal. [00:06:27] Speaker B: There's a. This is going to sound crazy, and I am going to butcher who the artist is, but there's a song, maybe it's Kanye West. I don't know who it is, but it's like, bigger, faster, stronger, better. That's what we used to kind of. That was the joke in our lab in grad school. So microflowduct is to make everything smaller, faster, less expensive. I think I already said faster, smaller, faster, cheaper, and done in a portable manner. Right. So the idea being, let's take all of these cumbersome techniques or assays or things that normally take up hours and hours of a technician's time, and they take tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment to maintain and use. Let's shrink everything down, and we'll do it on a micro scale on a device that's the size of what your thumb may be, and get an answer in five minutes instead of five days. That's kind of the driving force behind all of it. So, in our lab, specifically, we were working on point of care diagnostics for a wide range of applications. So the two that I touched on the most as a grad student were infectious pathogen detection. And then we had a big project with the Department of Defense to work on human identification. So we had a big push on sort of forensic human identification. [00:08:03] Speaker A: Wow, that's really unique. [00:08:05] Speaker B: That's why I say it wasn't truly chemistry in that sense, but almost a mix of chemistry, biomedical engineering, kind of just a mashup of lots of things. [00:08:17] Speaker A: Wow. Did you have colleagues that ended up going to work in forensics or on the DOD or anything like that? [00:08:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say about half of the lab had a pretty strong, either forensic background or interest in forensics. That was never really my passion. I enjoyed the bit of it that I learned about in my time as a grad student, and I enjoyed the application. But as a field, it wasn't necessarily my passion. But there were a lot of folks in our lab that went on to do things in forensics that was at. [00:08:49] Speaker A: The University of Virginia. [00:08:50] Speaker B: Right. [00:08:52] Speaker A: Cool. So while you're doing all of this, and I imagine, and I look to ask every one of my guests this. But on your most frustrating days, what was your just give it all up, throw it all away and run off job? What was your fantasy job? [00:09:07] Speaker B: Oh, I spent so much time thinking about that in grad school. I think we all do. So that's a great question. So I think my answer now is probably the same as it was ten years ago when I was in grad school. And that is my best friend from grad school. He and I were going to open a sandwich shop, and we were going to have foo foo sandwiches and craft beer and maybe coffee, and it was just going to be kind of a cozy little nook somewhere, and I would run it and be the creative brains behind it, and I would just have a simple existence. Not that that's a simple existence, and there are a lot of folks that do that. Obviously, everything's more complicated than meet CI, but at the time, that felt like the most far removed path from what I was doing at the time, that that seemed so appealing to me. [00:10:03] Speaker A: I couldn't agree more. And what's really funny is that everyone that I've talked to so far, with the exception of one person offline, everyone, has had something with regards to either baking or making coffee or making sandwiches. [00:10:18] Speaker B: Yeah, that's crazy. I think there's something about scientists love to make and do with their hands, right? I mean, I think there's something to be said for creating something and knowing the end result. Whereas when you're in grad school and you're doing research, you never know the end result. And nine times out of ten, if you're lucky, it never works. Right? It never works. And so it's the idea of having something where you know the outcome and you know it's going to work every time, I think is really appealing in those moments of just intense, nothing ever works. And I've been bashing this problem for two years and I'm still at the same place I was two years ago. That is so frustrating to stay on track and stay interested and engaged in solving this problem. And it just feels like maybe it isn't solvable. Maybe that's why nobody has solved it yet. Maybe it's not solvable. [00:11:19] Speaker A: It's funny that you say that, because as you were talking, she's right, because if you do something wrong in your assay, then the result is buckets. I mean, it doesn't matter. You did something wrong. You cannot trust that result. But you add too much mayo to a sandwich, you might actually make it better. [00:11:40] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:11:40] Speaker A: You have to substitute a meat for another meat or a veggie for another veggie and it's still okay. [00:11:44] Speaker B: Yes. It's not a make or break thing. Yeah, you're not going to lose funding. You're not going to get. [00:11:50] Speaker A: It's all okay. [00:11:51] Speaker B: I think the stakes are lower, or at least it seems like that from an ignorant outsider. I've never run a sandwich. I'm sure there's more to it. [00:12:01] Speaker A: I'm sure someone someday will write in the comments, hey, I run a sandwich shop and I am there at four in the morning. We understand. We're just Saying from an outsider. [00:12:12] Speaker B: I apologize to that. [00:12:16] Speaker A: Quick, quick correction, Sarah Sarke did say that she wanted to be a dog groomer. So that was another okay that falls. [00:12:24] Speaker B: Into the same doing with your hands and being able to control the outcome. [00:12:28] Speaker A: But everybody else, my first interview, Alicia Case and I, we were going to open a cupcake shop. That was because we used to go to these meetings and we would play hooky in the afternoon when our brains were just too full and we would go to come out of some kind of schmancy cupcake shop and pay way too much money for like a red velvet and like a cup of coffee. And we would just sit and it was just very nice and it was peaceful. And everyone came in and they left happy. And I was like, yes. Why can't. [00:12:57] Speaker B: That's what I want. Yes. This feels amazing. It's just such a departure from your everyday life when you're a grad student, surely. [00:13:07] Speaker A: I love to ask that question because I want to make sure that our listeners understand that even those of us who stayed in science and we made it through and we met on to be successful in our careers, we all have that fantasy of just giving it all up and still do sometimes. [00:13:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:26] Speaker A: Still do sometimes. [00:13:30] Speaker B: Yeah. I agree. [00:13:31] Speaker A: So then when did you decide you wanted to go into industry? Or was that always something that you had in mind? [00:13:38] Speaker B: I should say that if you believe it. I sort of went to grad school on a lark, on a whim, I just sort of thought, well, I graduated from college in 2010, which was eight, nine and ten were terrible years to graduate from college. The economy was coming out of the recession. It just wasn't a great time to be a new, fresh faced college grad. And I just kind of didn't see a path for anything that looked interesting to me at the ripe young age of, what, 22? And so I left for a few years and I moved to Boulder and had a lot of fun. And then decided after two years I should probably use my brain and get back into doing something constructive with my life. And so I applied to grad school and I went. So I don't think academia was ever something I maybe even considered as a path even before grad school or during grad school. And then if it had been something that I had considered, I think I would have changed my mind pretty quickly after starting grad school, just because my interest is, and always has been more in the direct application of the science. I'm not interested in solving problems or answering questions just for the sake of solving problems or answering questions. I want to see it applied and used in a tangible way. And that's something that I felt like only industry could satisfy, was getting to see the direct application of my work. [00:15:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. That's great. So you didn't want to do research just for the sake of research? [00:15:33] Speaker B: Yeah, I wanted to be in industry and see how it was going to. What is this device going to be used for? Who is it helping? Who's going to be buying it? What's our end goal here? And I think industry gets you a little bit closer to answering those questions. [00:15:53] Speaker A: Do you think taking the two years off or those three years off helped you get that perspective? [00:16:01] Speaker B: I'm not sure that it helped me get perspective in that regard. I think it was a wonderful time in my life, and I think it helped me get perspective on other things, but I'm not sure. Yeah, I don't know. [00:16:18] Speaker A: I only ask because as a senior in college, I worked in a lab, and the summer after my sophomore and my junior year, I worked in a lab and slicing brains and staining tissue and counting Brdu positive neurons and things like that. And so I was always in the lab, and I was always surrounded by the academic types, and so I got to see what their life was like and work with their grad students. So in my mind, that's what I was going to do, because I guess I'm the type of person who I need to see examples of something before I know if that's something that I want to pursue. And in large part that's why I started this podcast, is because I wanted to show other people what their other options are after graduation. [00:17:09] Speaker B: So that's why I ask if taking. [00:17:10] Speaker A: A couple of years off and being around, quote unquote, real people and not academic types, if that maybe helps. So it was just curious. [00:17:19] Speaker B: No, that's a great question, and I've never really thought about it in that context before. I am honestly not sure I ever would have gone to grad school if I had worked in a lab as an undergrad and gotten that experience. Just because I think I would have seen the day to day tedium and, yeah, just failure after failure after failure. Even when you're doing really good science, 90% of it at least, is failing, right. That science is learning how to fail gracefully on a good day. And I'm not sure everyone that's brutal thought I can hack it in grad school if I had gotten that experience. So in some ways I'm grateful that I didn't because I wouldn't be where I am today. Yeah, I don't know. It's not for the faint of heart, right? I mean, everybody that's been in grad. [00:18:04] Speaker A: School knows that it is not for the faint of heart. And in fact, I wonder if that's sometimes why I am as persistent as I am or kind of go with the flow as I am. Because, oh, another Western didn't work or, oh, another experiment. But I did everything in cell culture, so for me it wasn't months of animal work and injuries and traces and behavioral analysis and all these other things. For me, I grew the cells on Monday, lyse them on Friday, and then by the middle of next week, my Western and my PCRs were done and I knew what happened. So it was a much quicker turnaround. Now, it's funny, with your microfluidics background, you're probably thinking very quick turnaround. Okay. Because I was wondering if you were thinking like, oh, that's long for microfluidics. [00:18:54] Speaker B: Yes. So what you just described. Hold on, my screen just went black. Oh, okay. [00:19:01] Speaker A: I can still see you. [00:19:03] Speaker B: You can see me. [00:19:04] Speaker A: I can see you. [00:19:05] Speaker B: My camera is on. Hold on. Let's see. Why is my screen black? See me now? Yeah. [00:19:11] Speaker A: I mean, again, I could always. Is it weird you can't see yourself? Is it going to be awkward? [00:19:20] Speaker B: Actually, I think I maybe prefer it. [00:19:24] Speaker A: Okay. [00:19:25] Speaker B: All right. So as long as you can hear me fine and you can see me fine, then we're good. [00:19:32] Speaker A: Yeah. What we were talking about before. Yeah. I mentioned microfluidics and we were talking about how I could get results on because we were talking about just like failure and failure and failure. And I said how I could get my results from Monday, grew my cells on Monday, lifestyle on Friday, and by the middle of next week, everything was done. And I said, with microfluidics, that probably sounds kind of slow, so we'll try to from there. [00:20:06] Speaker B: Okay. All right, perfect. Yeah. That's maybe one advantage of being in a microfluidics lab is that you fail pretty quickly. You fail often because you're failing on a much quicker turnaround time, but it is at least you're not sort of laboring for weeks or months until you get a discouraging result. You're getting it over and over and over and over and over again on a daily basis. [00:20:38] Speaker A: That sounds brutal in its own way, though. [00:20:41] Speaker B: It does. I described it terribly. I hope I don't discourage anybody from going into microfluidics or science in general. Maybe I'm having microfluidic, but no, I think really strongly that one of the biggest skill sets anybody comes out of a graduate program with is their comfort with failure. Right, exactly like you said. And I think most scientists, or former scientists, or however they want to categorize themselves, would say that that prepared them really well for the quote unquote real world. And if you can adapt to that and you can learn to be persistent as a result, I think that that serves you really well in future endeavors. [00:21:34] Speaker A: I can agree with that. [00:21:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:36] Speaker A: So you always knew you wanted to go in industry, at least when you started graduate school, and your friends were getting jobs in the DOD and they were getting jobs in forensics, but your first job was at cell microsystems. So how did that come about? [00:21:54] Speaker B: That's a great question. So I finished up grad school and then moved down to the Raleigh Durham Chapel Hill, the research triangle area, because my now husband got a postdoc in the area. And so we had decided that we wanted to move down here. We'd identified this area or Boston as being kind of our best bets in terms of both being scientists and finding jobs and places that we wanted to live. And so we moved down here, and I started looking at companies in the area that know science. That felt within my wheelhouse, I guess. And I came across cellmaker systems, and it's a spin out company from UNC Chapel Hill. And one of the founders knew my Pi, and so he had connected us kind of in a roundabout way. And I just reached out, and I think I honestly just got incredibly lucky. I had reached out to several other companies. And again, that goes back to the theme of failure. Applying for jobs is always an exercise in handling rejection well. Right. So this one just happened to work out, and I emailed them, and I explained who I was and what my interest was, and I had just kind of laid it all on the table and sent the CEO an email. And I got incredibly lucky that he responded and said, your background lines up weirdly well with a position that we're looking to fill, but it's dependent upon some grant funding that we're waiting to hear about, so we'll know in the next few months. And it ended up working out. And I still to this day feel incredibly indebted to and grateful for my experience there and that they took a chance on me. I did not do a postdoc. I was coming right out of grad school, no postdoc, and they took a chance on me and it worked out well. And I was there for three years and I loved it. It was an incredible place to have a first job, and I got so many experiences and had some really great mentors, and it was just a perfect first step into industry, I think. [00:24:12] Speaker A: That's great. That's really great. So I assume your mentor in grad school was amenable to his students, her students moving on to industry, is that right? [00:24:24] Speaker B: Yes. [00:24:25] Speaker A: Very supportive. [00:24:26] Speaker B: Yeah, he was supportive and I think understood that academia isn't for everyone. And even if it were everyone's interest, there aren't enough positions to. The numbers don't work. Right. So he was supportive of most of his students wanting to go on into industry. [00:24:48] Speaker A: So then what I'm hearing is that you essentially just shot out an email to the CEO of this company and, wow, that's bold. [00:25:02] Speaker B: I sometimes look back and I think to myself, man, I was so bold when I was. I don't know, it wasn't that long ago, but I think I am decent at being bold when I need to be. The stakes weren't what did I have to lose at that point? So it was easy to be bold. [00:25:25] Speaker A: I love that attitude because I get asked the question a lot about applying for jobs and I'm not sure if I'm a good fit. I'm not sure if this or that. And honestly, my answer is always like, well, I mean, if you are interested, then just apply. The only thing you have to worse is maybe a little bit of time that it takes to tweak your resume or convert your CV. Two resume that's appropriate for that position, or write a cover letter. I mean, there's really not much to lose. And so this actually goes back to what we were talking about, the high risk environment in research. You try and you try and try and there's much bigger consequences in the lab versus. I'm going to shoot an email to this guy and the worst thing that happens is he either doesn't respond or he responds and says, don't waste my time. [00:26:15] Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm like, okay, fair enough. I'll move on to the next one. [00:26:21] Speaker A: Worse, from my PhD mentor. Besides, don't waste my time. So, I mean, it would have pulled off my back completely. [00:26:28] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think that that's another maybe really important thing that most folks do learn in grad school, or at least that's the goal, is to. Yeah. What's the harm? I don't know. Go for it. Why not? [00:26:41] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So you said you didn't do a postdoc. Do you recommend people do a postdoc? Now, if you interview people, do you look for people with postdoc experience? [00:26:55] Speaker B: No, I don't. I have friends that have done both. Friends from grad school that have done both. Actually, maybe that's not true. I think most of my friends did do a postdoc, a few did not. So a healthy mix of both. But I think I just was itching to get out of academia as soon as I possibly could. So for me, it was never a question. It was, if there's even a chance that I could land a job in industry without having to do a postdoc. Done. I will relentlessly pursue whatever opportunities I can to make sure that that happens. [00:27:39] Speaker A: Awesome. [00:27:40] Speaker B: I would never look unfavorably on a postdoc, and I think that's the more traditional path. But again, I think if you know that you want to go into industry, I'm not sure what specific experience you're getting in your postdoc, maybe that would be applicable. I don't know. [00:28:07] Speaker A: Okay. [00:28:08] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:28:09] Speaker A: Okay. Maybe it varies, too, from position to position, but it seems like the general consensus is a lot of jobs do want you to have postdoc experience. And in my interview with Julie Tetsloff, she said that it can show your ability to learn new things and acquire new skills and maybe relocate to another part of the country, and it shows adaptability. But I think you're right, Jacqueline. I mean, if you know what you want, then why not try to go for it right away? [00:28:42] Speaker B: Well, and I think you can show all of those things in wherever you land. That's something that I think so being able to show. I'm always open to learning new skill sets, and I'm always open to expanding my. Hold on. Let me start again. I think that, yeah, I think that as long as you are, whether you're in a postdoc or you're lucky enough to go straight into industry, if that's the path that you choose. I think showing that you're open and willing to learn new skill sets is always going to be valuable. So I'm not sure that that's unique to doing a postdoc, I guess. [00:29:30] Speaker A: Yeah. And showing that you're very self motivated. Right. That seems to be a theme. [00:29:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:35] Speaker A: Everyone says, I need to see that you're a go getter. I need to see that. I don't need to micromanage you. You can just take a project and run with it. [00:29:43] Speaker B: Yes. And show me enthusiasm. I want to see enthusiasm. [00:29:46] Speaker A: Okay. All right. So now, speaking of projects. So on your LinkedIn page, your credentials are, you are a PhD and a PMP. So obviously you're not putting on Linkedin that you're a pimp. So what? Exactly. I'm sorry. My husband and I both saw that. [00:30:05] Speaker B: That is the joke in our house as well. I always like to say that I am a pimp. Right on. [00:30:12] Speaker A: So what is a PMP? [00:30:15] Speaker B: A PMP is a project management professional. So that's just the acronym for the sort of professional Accreditation that's recognized by the Project Management Institute, or PMI. [00:30:29] Speaker A: Okay. So as we talked about before we jumped on and started recording, I actually had no idea what a project manager was until I worked with one and for my listeners. And even when I was in business school and people were talking about their project managers, and I'm thinking, there are people who do that in research. It's all you. Usually. You're the initiator, you're the manager. You follow it from start to finish. And the project manager who I worked with in my previous company was really a phenomenal project manager. He could see everything in a very stepwise fashion. And this could be any project. Right. Whether it's the writing of a manuscript or the initiation of a new process at work, it's just anything that could be constituted as something new can have a project manager to kind of guide it through the steps. [00:31:26] Speaker B: Right, absolutely. [00:31:29] Speaker A: What else would you add to that? [00:31:32] Speaker B: No, I think that's a really good way of describing it. I think you're right that it's not a path that a lot of scientists are aware of. Or at least I was not in grad school, and I had a similar experience where I wasn't really aware that such a thing existed until I worked with one. And I worked with a phenomenal project manager when I was in grad school. And that sort of opened my eyes to this whole other world of being involved in maybe not doing the science anymore. You're not doing the bench work, but being involved in the science and the scientific decisions that are being made, but also getting to sort of bring order to what can otherwise be a really chaotic process. Right. I mean, again, depending on what type of project management you're going into. But that's what it all boils down to, is bringing a reliable cadence to the project such that everybody's pulling their weight and being held accountable to hit the milestones. And I think that's obviously so important with research and funding and learning how to stay on track and hold yourself and your teammates accountable. [00:32:49] Speaker A: And it's interesting because as I've read about project management, we unconsciously do a lot of those things, but this is a much more formalized process, and I think it holds you, as the project manager, accountable to, as you say, make sure that you know who everyone that this is going to affect. And you bring in the right people and you ask the right questions, and you delegate appropriately, and everyone's accountable for their own thing. I remember reading, I read through like a project manager's manual or something like that, and it was really eye opening to think this is something that we do. But I guess in a way, it's a much more thoughtful way of going about it, rather than absolutely just kind of going through the motions. [00:33:42] Speaker B: Yeah. No, it sort of formalizes it and makes it into a more thoughtful approach. But you're right that everybody is a project manager in one way or another, or one way or another. And especially in grad school. I mean, you are your own project manager, kind of with maybe a team of one sometimes, because you're responsible in some ways only for yourself and your project. But you're getting the foundation and you're learning the foundation of how to keep things on track. And that's all really applicable to project management, and it's all applicable to kind of the foundation that they test you on when you go through the process. Yeah. [00:34:28] Speaker A: So then, since this is something that we all kind of subconsciously do, what made you decide to actually go into a program and become a formalized project management professional? [00:34:41] Speaker B: I guess that's a good question. I just wanted to legitimize it. I guess it all goes back to kind of always feeling like an imposter in some way or another. And I wanted to make sure that if I was going to present myself as being competent in these task areas, I wanted to make sure that I had kind of the credentials to back that up as a way of making myself feel like I belonged in the room. When they said, here's the project manager. I wanted to make sure that nobody could refute that, silly as that may sound. So I just kind of wanted to solidify that. [00:35:27] Speaker A: I have a couple of thoughts on that. One is, I think, especially as women, we feel that need to say, like, no, I'm sorry, man. [00:35:35] Speaker B: I belong here, too. [00:35:37] Speaker A: I belong here. I have the credentials. I did the education. I did the work. And so I see that table, and I have every right to be dictating or leading this conversation. [00:35:50] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:35:50] Speaker A: But I guess the other part is, and we talked about this a little bit earlier, but as academics, we love classes and agendas and books and formalized processes, I may mention. But when I decided to pursue graduate school, I'm not graduate school. My business school, I had a few people say, you don't need to spend the money. You don't need to go to school. Just buy a book on maybe some of the things that you don't know a lot about, or take some webinars. And I was like, no, I need to have some. [00:36:27] Speaker B: Yeah. I want to know that I am as prepared as I can be for this path. Right. I want to have taken the course, and I want to have been tested on it, and I want to prove that I studied it and that I know it and that I am proficient in all of this. [00:36:46] Speaker A: And I like the way you use that word, legitimate. You want to be able to say, no, I am for real. I am legit. I have my certification. This is when I got it. And we like to collect letters. You get your first few letters after your name, and now you want more. [00:37:03] Speaker B: Yes, for sure. It's a competition. In our house, I had to have more letters than my husband. [00:37:11] Speaker A: It's like a competition at a scientific meeting. Who's got the most ribbons? [00:37:15] Speaker B: Exactly. Yes. It all goes down, or it all comes down to competition. Always. [00:37:20] Speaker A: And we like quantifiable things. [00:37:22] Speaker B: Yes. [00:37:23] Speaker A: So then how long was the program like? Tell us about the program. [00:37:26] Speaker B: Yeah, well, one thing that I liked about the program is that it looks different for everyone. So it's not a program in the traditional sense, like when you got your MBA, and it's a defined path. So with getting a PMP, because it's just a certification, it's not a degree. You apply to be able to take the test. And so the application involves documenting projects that you've worked on in a certain number of hours and certain areas of project management. And so you have to sort of comb through your past and put together kind of a nice package of what your experience has been so far, and you pull that together and then you have to take a course, but you can take it online, or it can be a self taught that you can kind of pick your own path in that regard. You just have to document that you've taken a certain number of hours of coursework. And so you package that all up and you apply. And then the project Management Institute, the PMI, looks at your application and either approves you or denies you for sitting for the exam, and then you take the exam. And I think I tried to block it all out of my memory, but I think it's like a four hour exam, and you are just tested on all of the fundamentals of various types of project management. So agile and traditional project management. And it sort of goes into the weeds on a lot of things that you maybe aren't familiar with yet. But I had gotten a guidebook and worked my way through some practice exams and things like that. So in a lot of ways, not unlike the SAT or the GRE or other tests that we've taken in our lifetime. And so you take the test and then either pass or fail, and then you get certified if you pass. [00:39:33] Speaker A: Okay, what was the question format, like short answer or multiple choice? [00:39:39] Speaker B: It was a mix. So some multiple choice, some short answer, like matching. So the year that I took it, I took it in 2021, and they had just changed the exam format in, I think, like late 2020 or early 2021. So when I took it in August of 2021, they were still kind of in this new format. So I think previous to 2020 or 2021, I might not be exact there with the dates, but it has only been in this sort of new format for a few years now. And then prior to that, I think it was maybe all multiple choice, but they've opened it up to kind of have a little bit more different types of questions and different types of formats, I guess. [00:40:27] Speaker A: So, in terms of your timeline, you said you were working with a project manager in graduate school, and then you got your certification after graduation. But while you were working at Cell Microsystems. [00:40:38] Speaker B: I got it while I was at Powered research. [00:40:41] Speaker A: Oh, you're at powered research. Okay, so that was your next job after cell microsystems, and that's where we met. Yes, that's right. It's funny going back to the GRE and some of these other tests, I remember something about what you said jogged my memory. And I was so relieved that when I applied for business school that I would not have to retake the GRE. Oh, my God. No, I can't do that again. [00:41:09] Speaker B: It's painful. [00:41:10] Speaker A: Yes, it is definitely painful. Okay, so then, I guess one last question about the program. So then how do you think, if you think about how you did projects when you were in school versus how you approached them after you got this certification, how do those two pathways, how are they similar and how are they different? [00:41:32] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good question. I guess most of what I learned through my sort of training and then through the coursework that I did and studying for the PMP exam, it sort of formalized all of the processes that I kind of had maybe a loose understanding of or was vaguely aware of. It just sort of cemented some of the, you know, there are some things that you maybe always want to do when you're initiating a project. It brought some structure to what was otherwise kind of. Maybe I didn't recognize the elements of project management that should always be in place. And I kind of just inherently, you're kind of learning on the job and figuring it out as you go and trying to manage it as best you could, whereas post going through the program and getting the certification, it sort of brought a structure to some of those things so that I was able to apply them in a more rigid way, I guess, if that makes sense. [00:42:37] Speaker A: All right. I think that makes sense to me because then I'm thinking about your role at project. Oh, my gosh. Powered research. Sorry. Thinking about your role at research, I guess. Describe that for me. What were you doing there? What was your role after you were done with cell Microsystems and you got your PMP certification? What was your next role? [00:43:06] Speaker B: Yeah. So I ultimately left cell microsystems and joined Power research because I wanted to get more experience with project management. So I alluded to having worked with a project manager when I was in grad school and interested in that path. But then at Cell Microsystems, I was a scientist and working my way up there and still doing the bench work. And again, kind of a one person project management team in that you're responsible for your own work and learning a lot of the fundamentals. But my title was not project manager, and I wanted to get that experience so that I could have that on my resume and I could formalize that experience because I had recognized that was the path that I wanted to pursue. And so in joining Powered research, I knew that that would allow me to sort know, codify that project management. Now I have it on my resume. Now I can be more legitimate when I tell people that I'm a project manager. So when I first joined Powered research. It was to be a project manager and then also run the business development side of things. So things were really starting to pick up at Power Research, which is a small preclinical CRO in the area. Things were starting to really pick up because of the timing and the pandemic. And a lot of folks that previously were running their animal work, maybe at universities or elsewhere, were having to find new homes for some of that work because everything was in flux with the pandemic. And so things were really starting to pick up, and we were building out the business and preparing to move into a much larger space. And so I was able to learn again, it goes back to always trying to learn new skill sets. So I was able to learn the business side of things. I had never worked at a CRO before. I was able to learn that, and I was able to bring some of these project management techniques and practices to my role there and help bring a little bit of organizational elements to what maybe didn't exist previously. [00:45:17] Speaker A: I think you're the third or fourth person now I think the fourth who has worked at a CRO. And so this is something that a lot of the students ask me about because they're still interested in bench research, but maybe they want to do it in an industry rather than at a university. I love the option of having the CRO because if you yourself know, I need to do this experiment in order to get FDA approval. I need to do all of these experiments to get FDA approval for my product. So I need a lab that can do this, this, and this, and that's not going to be you, but it's really good to have people who have that certification, have that capability, all those specialists on their payroll, and you can just work with someone like yourself to say, this is what I need to do, and this is what I want our final outcomes to be. This is roughly our timeline, this is roughly our budget, and then we work together to come up with a good approach. Right? And I love that concept, because, again, as a researcher, you always feel like I need to have all the answers I need to have, and I need all myself, everything all by myself. And maybe I could reach out to someone in a different department who has HPLC or who has that, whatever, that behavioral test. Otherwise, I need to do it all myself. But it's really nice to be able to hand things off to another person and know that there's someone like you who are very well trained in science and very well trained in project management, and can say, okay, I can take this and usher it through the process. [00:47:03] Speaker B: And get you, and we will do your science well, and we will do. [00:47:07] Speaker A: It on time and on budget. [00:47:09] Speaker B: It's hard to relinquish control. I think we all have, as humans, we have that problem. But as scientists, certainly it's hard to let go of your baby, so to speak, and give it to somebody else to test or run or put it through the paces, and it's always kind of nerve wracking. [00:47:26] Speaker A: Out of curiosity, you are both a scientist and you have young children. I'm only a scientist. I do not have young children. I just have dogs and cats. But my question is, do you find it? Because to me, science, those projects always were my baby. No, you can't have my baby. That's mine. But I guess in a way, I'm going to half jokingly ask, is it harder to hand over your scientific baby, or is it harder to hand over your real baby to daycare? [00:47:55] Speaker B: Depends on the day. How late did they keep me up last night? If so, it's probably easier to hand over your real baby that day. But, no, I'm joking, of course. [00:48:06] Speaker A: A little facetious. [00:48:08] Speaker B: It's tough sometimes. I mean, no, really. When you've worked on a project for so long and you've seen it through from initiation all the way through, and now somebody's asking you to hand off these last pieces to somebody else, it's tough. Nobody wants to do that. You want to see it all the way through. Agreed. That's what we're trained to do. Yeah, agreed, I guess. [00:48:34] Speaker A: What other career paths do people with project management certifications, either within science or outside of science? What kind of. What do they pursue? [00:48:43] Speaker B: Yeah, all sorts of things. So I have gotten involved recently through Duke. They have a project management group that I joined, and it's been really interesting to see. There are project managers in all facets of both research, and I meet people all the time that say, oh, I'm a project manager, too. And then we get to talking, and they work in construction or for the city, and they do more kind of urban planning type things, or there are project managers in all walks of life. And I think as scientists, again, we just have a really narrow focus. And I kind of thought, okay, well, if I'm going to be a project manager, I'm going to be a scientific project manager, because that's what I know and that's what I love. But the fact of the matter is you could have a PMP certification, and you could apply it to just about any type of project that needs to be kept on track and most importantly, on budget. I would say most of the time for the relevant parties they all want to know about. It's always the money, right? Yeah. So the answer is the sky's the limit. I guess you could be a project manager in just about any field. [00:49:57] Speaker A: So for people who are listening who think that sounds really interesting, what would be some resources that you think potentially interested parties could start consulting? If they would think that they might be interested in pursuing a certification in. [00:50:12] Speaker B: Project management or just the certification in general? I would say go to the PMI website. That's going to be the best resource in terms of just looking through. All right, here are the credentials. Not credentials, but the sort of boxes that I need to check to be able to apply to take the exam. Start there and just kind of give yourself a gut check on. Okay, well, it says that I need three years of experience and I have one, but I'm working towards that. Just kind of plan ahead in terms of when you think you'd be able to check all the boxes, and then from there reach out to me on LinkedIn. I'd love to talk to anybody that's interested in project management, but I would say start at the PMI website. And I also don't mean to make it sound like that's the only path. There are other certifications in project management. There are agile certifications. If you're more involved in software development, there are hybrid certifications. There's all sorts of different certifications. I just went with kind of the most widely recognized, I guess. But there are other paths beyond just PMP certification. There are lots of options. Yeah. [00:51:28] Speaker A: I think the book that I read was called Project Management for the non project manager. [00:51:33] Speaker B: Okay. [00:51:34] Speaker A: And I heard about that through the university where I got my business degree. Actually, it was during COVID actually, they had some of these online symposia where a couple of hours at a time every week. And they assigned this book and I read it and I thought it was really interesting because again, that might be a good foray if you learn about the process. And they kind of break it down. In these very. One of the cases that they said were in this one hospital they wanted to implement, it was either a new hand washing rule or something about there was like uncontrolled staph infections, and then they narrowed it down and narrowed it down and then realized that these infections were probably happening as a result of either doctors weren't washing their hands for long enough or they weren't implementing an alcohol based hand rub or something. And so that became like a project that they took from start to finish. Like, this is how we're going to educate our staff and our nurses and our techs and our doctors and everybody. It's going to take you more time. Yes, but this is what's going to be on the other side. And I remember reading that and thinking, okay, now I kind of get it, because, again, I'm more of a case based learner. So something. And you say, okay, this is how you can go. This is a method to go from point A to point Z. It put things together a little bit better for me. [00:53:10] Speaker B: Oh, that makes a lot of sense. I've never read that book, but maybe I will now, even though I am a project manager, because it sounds really interesting. And I think something that you just touched on that's really important is to remember that a project is kind of, I think a lot of scientists think of a project as a very narrowly defined. Whether it's a research project or it's a question that you're trying to answer, or we think of it as a really finite and tangible thing. But oftentimes, exactly like you just described, a project can be a little bit broadEr. It can be more like an initiative that you're trying to, or you're trying to bring awareness to something, or you're trying to create something. And that can also be a quote unquote project that can be managed and sort of shuttled through the framework to bring it through to fruition, I guess. [00:54:10] Speaker A: And it goes a little bit in reverse to what scientists normally think about. I think another example that they had in the book was there was a faculty member who realized that there were a lot of students who weren't really speaking because they were international students and they just didn't know how to connect with other students. He made his observation and then whittled down to the cause and then created a project around that cause to have the effect. And it was interesting because normally for us, we make the observation and then we whittle it down to the cause, and then we're done. That's the answer. [00:54:52] Speaker B: Yeah, then we move on. [00:54:54] Speaker A: Exactly. So it was interesting to learn, like, oh, there's a whole other process after that to either figure out, okay, so now we know that doctors aren't washing their hands for long enough or they're not using the correct soap or whatever. So now we have to take, what. [00:55:09] Speaker B: Are we going to do about it? [00:55:10] Speaker A: Exactly. That kind of changed my way of thinking a little bit as someone who, again, for me, a project was a PCR reaction, and then it was know. [00:55:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:55:22] Speaker A: The gene expression went up or it went down, and that was my. [00:55:26] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. [00:55:27] Speaker A: So then now at your, what's your role at the vaccine institute? [00:55:33] Speaker B: Yeah, so I've been at Duke for a little over a year, and up until maybe a month or so ago, my role was GMP project manager. So at DHVI, we have projects that go from the basic research that's being done in the PI's labs, and then obviously it's all vaccine based research. So it is going from the PI and then it's going into animal studies. And then depending on the results, we have a GMP manufacturing facility within DHBI. And so that's where the team that I work on, that's where we come in, is helping shuttle the project from the PI's lab through the process of scaling it up and determining whether or not it's manufacturable. And then if it is actually manufacturing it and then violing it and getting it to the appropriate team so that it can go into clinical trials, that's where we fit into the equation. And so that has been, again, a whole new skill set for me. Vaccine research was new to me when I started. Manufacturing was new to me when I started the GMP world, also new. And so that was part of the rationale on my part for taking the job, was to learn all of those skill sets and learn about the manufacturing world. There's a lot of manufacturing done down here in North Carolina and in our area. And so it's a great skill set to familiarize yourself with. And then recently I have continued doing that, and then my role has expanded a little bit to include some. We have a regional biocontainment lab here at DHBI that does a lot of animal work for some of the Pis that are involved in various grant programs. And so I'm helping out with some of the program management aspects of the animal studies and the animal work that's being done within DHBI as well. [00:57:32] Speaker A: So it sounds like you're still adding a lot of tools to your tool belt as you go along. [00:57:40] Speaker B: That is always my goal, yes. I think that I have never shied away from learning a new skill set, and if anything, I think it's what has usually been the impetus behind hopping to a new position is always if I find myself in a situation where I don't think I'm learning anything else or expanding my skill set, then it's time for me to find an opportunity where I can continue to learn and grow, because I think as an employer, it's equally on you to make sure that your employees are learning and growing. There's more to a job than just doing your job for money, right? I mean, there has to be. It has to be a two way street. And if you want folks to be happy and stick around, you have to give them opportunities to learn and grow. [00:58:38] Speaker A: And it benefits everybody, especially for people like us. I was a Medical science liaison during COVID when there was just no traveling happening at all. And there's only so many journal clubs that you can do with your team. There's only so many online meetings that you can do with your team. And after a while, it just gets to be to the point that exactly like you're saying, you feel like you're not learning anything anymore, you're not expanding anymore. And for some people, they would say, well, you're collecting a nice paycheck and you're sitting at home. Why is that a bad thing? I don't know. For me, I hated it. If I'm not challenged, if I feel stagnant, then I cannot. [00:59:21] Speaker B: Yes, feeling stagnant. That is exactly it. I cannot feel stagnant. [00:59:31] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. [00:59:32] Speaker B: I think a lot of scientists are like that, and I say a lot. I keep generalizing a lot of scientists, but I think that what attracts people to science oftentimes is indicative of personality traits that we tend to have in common. And so I think that a lot of scientists find that they're just allergic to being stagnant. And we need more, and we need challenging situations, and we need new problems to solve or new tools in our tool belt to be able to solve the problem next time, or we want to constantly. I'm constantly trying to learn how to be more efficient, especially since having two kids and we've got young kids right now, and if we're not ruthlessly efficient with our time, then nothing we can't get from day to day, right? Yeah. [01:00:23] Speaker A: It's funny, I was talking to a friend of mine a few weeks ago, and I was visiting my alma mater, and I asked her, how many of the techniques do you use as a PI that you also use on your children? And she was like, oh, yes, there's a lot. [01:00:36] Speaker B: So many. It's so applicable. [01:00:39] Speaker A: Yeah, I thought that was so funny. But you know what? I love that because I feel like a lot of people, some of the people that I speak to, they feel like, well, if they're going to go into industry, then maybe they don't have to focus so much on, necessarily publications, or maybe they feel like they're. I don't know the right way to put it, but I'm not going to say that anyone's Lazai fair about their research or in any way not serious about their work. But people get this impression that, I guess when you go into industry, maybe you only have to be good at a couple of things and then that's that. But I think what you're saying and kind of what I've been trying to say, too, throughout all these episodes is that that's not exactly the case, that you always want to learn more and you always want to get better at the things that you don't know about because that's going to make you more marketable and get you up to that next level and that next level. And it all starts with having this one inherent curiosity and this insatiable need to learn and being a little bit restless. [01:01:47] Speaker B: Yes. In a good way. Restlessness can be if you harness it appropriately. I think it's a great trait to have. Yeah. [01:01:57] Speaker A: Agreed. Do you get a chance to interview or hire people at all right now? [01:02:04] Speaker B: Not in my current role. Or at least not yet, no. [01:02:06] Speaker A: Okay. In your previous role? [01:02:09] Speaker B: In previous roles, yes. [01:02:11] Speaker A: So then what do you look for? I know we talked about this a little bit, but just as we're finishing up here, what kind of traits do you look for an applicant? [01:02:19] Speaker B: Always enthusiasm. Number one. Are you enthusiastic? Because I just think it's the most important. You can teach just about anybody to do just about anything. Right. And within reason. I'm not going to teach my toddler how to do open heart surgery, but you can, where appropriate, teach just about anyone to do just about anything job wise. And so I think the most important thing is that you are enthusiastic that you're going to, because that trickles down to you're going to show up on time, you're going to have a good attitude, you're going to be excited to be there, you're going to be a good team player. All of that falls under the umbrella of, are you just an enthusiastic and kind of a go getter personality wise? And then I would say beyond enthusiasm, are you willing to put in the work? Are you willing to just show up day after day and try to stay organized and try to be a good team player and try to. Yeah, I don't know. [01:03:31] Speaker A: No. Roll up your sleeves and get it done? [01:03:34] Speaker B: Yeah. There's a lot of parts of every job that kind of suck sometimes. Right. I mean, that's just the reality of being an adult. And so if you're not willing to put in the work to get through the hard parts, then you're never going to reap any benefit from it. And that goes both ways as an employer and as an employee. [01:03:58] Speaker A: Totally agree. I love that. So any last words of wisdom or advice or practical things that young chemistry, biology, biochemistry majors could think about as they're in graduate school? Any ideas on how they could best use their time if they want to pursue a path like yours, for example? [01:04:21] Speaker B: Sure. Best use their time. I think the biggest piece of advice is just to. It sounds cliche, but just try not to have too narrow of a focus in regard to what you think your options are because you have so many options and you can do and pursue any path that you find interesting. And just because you're in grad school and you're studying, let's say, chemistry, because that's where I was. That doesn't mean that your only option is to be a chemist and stay at the bench for the rest of your career. Figure out what skill sets you have developed in grad school and what skill sets come naturally to you and what your natural strengths are and figure out how to leverage those into opportunities that you are interested in pursuing. So maybe you're really organized. I've always been really organized. I've leveraged that into project management. Maybe you're a really great communicator. You can leverage that into a customer facing role at a cro or, I mean, the possibilities are endless. So don't have too narrow of a focus and try to pursue something that you. I'm not going to say pursue something that you're always passionate about because I don't know that that's realistic for most folks. But pursue something that you are at least interested in. It doesn't have to light you on fire because thaT's what hobbies are for and that's what family is for. That's what travel is for. That's what. There's other aspects of your life that can and should light you on fire. It doesn't have to always be your career. So find something that you're interested in and figure out how to leverage your skill set to get there. [01:06:08] Speaker A: I love that. The last thing I want to say is I actually just had a conversation like that with a friend of mine who said that she doesn't really feel super challenged in her role right now and she doesn't see a way to continue to grow upwards and she asked me particularly with regards to this podcast. She said, well, you're doing the thing, and I want to have something that I can do, too. And she doesn't feel like she can find it in her job. And I said, well, then join an association. Join like a women's Engineering association or get more involved in your particular field. If there's journal clubs or if there's other things that you can do to, like you say, light yourself on fire, meet new people in that field and grow upwards. And maybe project management certification is another good example because like you said, now you're meeting all these other people who are doing urban planning. [01:07:09] Speaker B: That's fascinating. Yeah. All right. [01:07:15] Speaker A: I love that. Thank you so much for your time today. Dr. Jacqueline Deval, we so appreciate it. It was so good to see you. [01:07:23] Speaker B: Thank you so much, Cynthia. This was a lot of fun. Thank you for chatting. And this is great. [01:07:28] Speaker A: Good. Thank you for joining. Talk to you next time. [01:07:32] Speaker B: Bye. [01:07:34] Speaker A: Thank you again to Dr. Jacqueline Deval for joining me today. Again, that book that I talked about was called the project management for non project managers. And the website that she talked about was the project management institute, or PMI, probably. So I hope you enjoyed today's episode and see you next. There's.