[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello and welcome back to the Bench to Boardroom podcast. I am your host, Cynthia Steele, and today's guest is Dr. Sarah Snyder. She is a farm D who is the co founder of MSL Mastery and Aspire MSL, as well as an executive recruiter for the Carolyn Group.
Sarah got her pharm D from Drake University in May of 2000 end and was one of the only students in her class, if not the only student, who was interested in medical information rather than inpatient care. And she took it upon herself to really push for a fellowship with the FDA and to get herself experience with medical information and drug information rather than going on to do patient care. And we are benefiting from that persistence. Sarah built an incredible career for herself over 20 years in medical affairs, working at different companies, and now she works as a recruiter and as a mentor for aspiring msls. If you're on LinkedIn and you follow medical affairs professionals at all on LinkedIn, you've probably seen Sarah's name. She posts all the time. She has absolutely wonderful content about how to become an MSL or case studies from clients of hers. She posts polls. I mean, she has this incredible online presence. So Sarah and I talk about pros and cons of the MSL career. We talk a bit about online branding and how if you don't build an online brand, your online brand is already out there. And it's not great because that picture of you is easily ten years old and it looks terrible. So if you don't build an online brand for yourself, it's already out there and it's not good. Sarah and I have this absolutely wonderful conversation. She is chock full of information and I really think you're going to enjoy it. She also talks about her own podcast, which is about running over 40. She's a guru about fitness and nutrition as well, which is what got her interested in pharmacy and overall, I mean, I think you're really going to enjoy this episode. So without further ado, my interview with Dr. Sarah Snyder.
I'm so excited. Thank you for doing this.
Dr. Sarah Snyder, welcome to the Vegetable boardroom podcast.
[00:02:43] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you so much for inviting me to be on.
[00:02:47] Speaker A: I am so excited to have you here. You're like LinkedIn famous. You're all over my LinkedIn.
That's funny.
[00:02:55] Speaker B: I'll tell my.
[00:02:58] Speaker A: Oh, you'll tell your.
I think my nieces would say, like, well, you're not really famous unless you're TikTok famous, but I can't handle TikTok, right?
[00:03:09] Speaker B: Oh, no, I know. Same yeah, it's way too much.
[00:03:14] Speaker A: So for my listeners who don't see you on their LinkedIn pages all the time, please introduce yourself.
[00:03:21] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. So my name is Sarah, and I'm a pharmacist by training. I live in the midwest, and I have worked in the industry, in the pharmaceutical industry, on the medical affairs side for about 20 years. That's the majority of my career. And then about two years ago, I pivoted outside of working in pharma to actually recruiting for those that want to either get into pharma or are already in. And so I've been a recruiter with an organization called the Carolyn Group for about two years, and then I also do career coaching on the side as part of a program called MSL Mastery. Just a little bit else about guess, you know, I have three kids and three dogs, and I love to run, and I'm kind of one of those people that's pretty much health and fitness obsessed. So we can talk about that a little bit. Related to pharmacy.
[00:04:14] Speaker A: Thanks again for having me.
[00:04:16] Speaker B: I'm excited, of course.
[00:04:17] Speaker A: I love that. And actually, I'm kind of a fitness nut, too. I'm addicted to my peloton, and I'm addicted to weightlifting. Now, I used to love to run, but then I ended up with a stress fracture. So I'm kind of taking a little bit of a step back from running so often. So the bike's been great for that. But one of the things that I posted about on Instagram recently that I really feel has helped me is I feel like weightlifting has actually helped me get more confident because I feel like you can't be hoisting these heavy weights around and watching yourself, literally feeling yourself get stronger and yet feel small and weak.
It's really helped me kind of feel more confident in my mind and in my body. Do you feel the same way when you do a particularly challenging run?
[00:05:07] Speaker B: Yeah. And I also have started. I probably started adding strength training maybe five years ago more seriously, and I agree. I got a strength coach and learned how to do it properly, and that made all the difference. So I'm with you. You just feel this sense of accomplishment when you continue to increase your weights or your reps, and it's a wonderful thing.
[00:05:31] Speaker A: Absolutely. I like how you said that you want to make sure you're doing it correctly because we've all been to the hotel gyms, and there are those guys in the corner, like, grunting, and you're, like, going anywhere near them. But a friend of mine who I've interviewed previously has said all those guys have the worst form. Like, don't even pay attention to them.
Love it. So what drew you to a career in pharmacy then?
[00:06:00] Speaker B: Yeah, it's actually interesting. I went to school and went to college to be a journalist. My love is actually in writing and communicating information. So when I was a freshman in college, I was on the cross country and track team at my university, and I was very interested in anything health related. And it was the time where we had a lot of expansion of the herbal medicines back then. That was when it all started to happen. And I remember, I think it was in some runners world magazine or something, reading about a supplement where it said you could sweep off the stuff off the floor at the pharmacy, put it in a capsule, and then put it for sale. And it's true, and no one was checking anything. You could put it out there. So there was just no regulation over supplements whatsoever at that time. And I got very interested in that and just the whole drug approval process. And that's what made me transition over to a pharmacy major. I never intended to be what I call a true pharmacist. I always just had some outside interest that led me into it.
[00:07:11] Speaker A: Okay. One of my best friends is a pharmacist, and her brain is like a sponge.
I don't know how she remembers what drugs are interacting with what I passed organic chemistry by the skin of my teeth, and I was like, done.
I'm done with this.
[00:07:29] Speaker B: Right?
[00:07:31] Speaker A: That is so impressive. So then I take it if you didn't become a pharmacist, did you want to be like a personal trainer or something else related to health and fitness?
[00:07:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I think all the way through pharmacy school, I knew I was going to do something different. Like most people in pharmacy school, I considered going on and becoming a PA or doing something like that, but drugs, patient care was never something that I felt like I was very good at, so it just wasn't my thing. I'm really a drug information nerd by background, so when I took the drug information, I can't remember what that course is even called in pharmacy school.
Some kind of statistics and evaluation. I was like, wow, this is more for me. And I really love statistics, evaluating scientific information. And so that's what I ended up doing after school is I did a residency in drug information that's a subset of pharmacy, and mine was in collaboration with a pharmaceutical company. So that's how I transitioned over into pharma. I looked at academic programs, too. I thought about working at a drug information center within a university. And that is a wonderful career path too. And I think I would have been happy doing that. I love finding answers to questions and just digging in deep into data.
[00:08:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I'm sure you've had this happen too, where someone will ask you a question and you'll kind of have an answer, but then it sticks in your head like, no, now I need to know. I know I've satisfied you, but now I need.
And it's always so cathartic. And you're like, yes, I got it.
That's exactly how this works. Or that works.
That's so neat. I like how you said, though, that when you were in school, you just knew that you weren't going to work at a Walgreens or at an emergency pharmacy or a hospital pharmacy. You knew you wanted to do something different.
I know for the PhDs that I interviewed, because you're the first farm D and all the phds that I talked to, we all had a little sense of guilt because there was a sense of, I guess, what's the word I'm looking for? Almost like obligation.
You're going to get a PhD and then you're going to teach, you're going to do research, you're going to contribute to either this university or another one and just contribute to the world of knowledge. And so any of us who then went on to do medical affairs or medical writing or anything else, communications wise, especially, I was told when I wanted to become an MSL, my mentor said, you're just going to be a glorified messenger.
Do you really want that? And it made me feel so guilty. So, out of curiosity, were there a lot of you in your pharmacy school class that kind of felt like patient care? Is that where I want to be?
[00:10:33] Speaker B: Okay, no, not at all. Actually, it was exactly the same experience that you're alluding to. I had that probably even more so if that's possible. I went to a Midwest pharmacy school where absolutely industry was not talked about. It's frowned upon. And I actually had to battle even to get a rotation in that area. And there was like a wall there.
But sometimes I think when you're young, you don't know any better. And I was just really persistent and knew what I wanted and I didn't care so much that I was met with that kind of animosity. Sometimes I wish I had more of that now right where you just, I really don't care. This is what I want and I'm going to go after it. And so I continued to do that. And the way that I was able to set myself apart for my applications, even for my residency, since it did include an industry component, was to get a rotation at FDA, and my school didn't do rotations with FDA, so that's where I really had to. This is back when the Internet wasn't as easily accessible and you had to write letters and you had to verbally make phone calls and things like that. So for those people out there that are thinking, gosh, this path isn't easy. It's really not. And it's maybe a little bit easier now, but it's definitely worth.
[00:12:01] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, for sure. My husband grew up in Indiana, and I think he would say the same thing. It was very much that, no, this is where you live and this is what you do. And that type of mentality where he grew up as well. I was lucky enough to grow up in the Chicago metropolitan area, so at least staying home was still a pretty big area with a pretty big amount of opportunities. But, yeah, I am very aware of the small town, Midwest mindset. Good for you for persevering, though.
[00:12:35] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:12:37] Speaker A: You've built this amazing career for yourself.
[00:12:39] Speaker B: Thanks.
[00:12:41] Speaker A: So then you were in medical information, and so that's the step that you took then, to become an MSL.
[00:12:48] Speaker B: Yes. So I was in medical information for a couple of years after my residency, and then I did do a one year, I call it, like, my hair, just a gap. And it wasn't a gap, but I left industry. I went with a person that I was working with at Eli Lilly that did a small startup in drug interactions and was creating this big database. And so it was really cool. And I'm like, I love the idea of being part of a startup. So I followed him. It was about exactly a year. We went around and educated people about the platform, did a lot of things like that. It didn't go. So about nine months into it, I was kind of like, should I go back to Lily? And then, I'll be honest, I got a recruiter call, and I always tell people the story. I can remember I was upstairs in the loft where I lived, and I remember the recruiter calling and saying, have you ever thought about being an MSO? And at the time, the answer was no. I just thought I'd go back and work internally at Lily, and I left on good. You know, that was the easier thing. But lo and behold, I got to talking to him. The territory was a good fit, the therapeutic area was a good fit, and went through the interview process, and I got the job. So it's not as easy nowadays, I don't think, at all. But back then, it wasn't as competitive, and I did have the Di. The drug information background that I think served me well.
[00:14:14] Speaker A: I think that really helps to have at least some degree of expertise, which is why msos have to have a doctorate degree of some kind. Because if you don't understand drug interactions or different drug classes or don't have a deep knowledge of a disease, mean that does make it just that much more challenging to really wrap your brain around everything that you're talking.
[00:14:38] Speaker B: Agree.
[00:14:38] Speaker A: So, I was a medical science liaison with Baushan mam, and the story is that the MSL team was started by our manager because they had a new antibiotic called Bessavance bessifloxacin that was approved only for bacterial conjunctivitis. But obviously, topical antibiotics can be used most of the time in context of surgery. Before and after cataract surgery, make sure that you don't have any sort of infection. But the sales reps couldn't talk about that. It was only approved.
And so, basically, the manager at the time, he was on the promotional side, and he said to come up with a team or, like, a group of people who could talk about the drug in all different contexts. And the company said, great, you run that team, and that's really.
[00:15:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Cool.
[00:15:42] Speaker A: I figured, as a pharmacist, you would appreciate that story.
[00:15:45] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. No, that's what msos do. That's the educational value that they can bring to a team, for sure.
[00:15:53] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So then what was your area of expertise?
Mine. Mine is ophthalmology, and I will talk about ophthalmology drugs till the cows come home. But what was your area of expertise when you first started?
[00:16:09] Speaker B: Yes. So at Lily, I did a lot of different things, but I did have a rheumatology component that was osteoporosis related. And then after that, I would say my entire 20 years was almost all immunology rheumatology. I launched Humira for a number of different conditions that are all immunology related. I did do about two years in psychiatry, but everything else is on the Ra Crohn's psoriasis side.
[00:16:37] Speaker A: The story of Humira actually blows my mind if you think about Tina papa antagonist, right?
[00:16:44] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:16:45] Speaker A: And how many times has it been repurposed? And it seems like it really works beautifully for people.
[00:16:53] Speaker B: Amazing. So many different indications, and I think it opened up our understanding of how so many diseases are immuniated back then, we just didn't know. And so it's a life changer for sure.
[00:17:09] Speaker A: That must have been so.
[00:17:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Yes, exactly.
[00:17:15] Speaker A: Did you get to be part of the clinical trials, too?
[00:17:18] Speaker B: So we were part of the Crohn's, the psoriasis, psoriatic arthritis clinical trials. If you know anything about, like, psoriasis. Psoriatic arthritis. Psoriatic arthritis wasn't even really a well known disease back then. So we were part of educating dermatologists on even asking the questions to patients to help them diagnose it and know that it was even a thing. So definitely a lot of education that was done.
[00:17:46] Speaker A: Yeah. That was always my favorite part of being an MSL, the education component, especially for me. In the glaucoma space.
You talk about the tissue that drains fluid out of the eye, and most of, I would say at least half of ophthalmologists would say, like, oh, yeah, that's the stuff that you just rip out when it stops working. Right. And I would be like.
[00:18:13] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:18:14] Speaker A: But then the goal was like, no, let's talk. Let me educate you. Look how cool these cells are. This is why you need this medicine in particular that we're talking about, because it's going to relax those cells. And, oh, isn't that better than just carving a big hole into it?
Those are so much. Oh, yeah.
Ophthalmology, surgery, surgical videos can be kind of brutal to watch.
[00:18:38] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:18:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
It was so much fun to just educate people on, so. And I could see it in your face, too, because you were also a teacher for a little while, weren't you?
[00:18:51] Speaker B: For a year at Butler, so I taught the drug. Oh, yeah, you mentioned your husband was in Indiana. So I was able to teach with another friend of mine. We co taught the drug information and literature evaluation course at Butler, and then I precepted students on and off throughout the years. But I don't get to do any of that right now. I think that part of my career is over just because I do get the opportunity to do so much mentoring now. So it's just a different type.
[00:19:22] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense.
I agree with you that getting an NSL job is not nearly as easy as how you made it sound for you. So I have my theories about why this is such a desirable career path for people. But what do you think? Why are people drawn to the MSL career path?
[00:19:40] Speaker B: Well, I think the number one reason is because it's the one they know about and the one that they hear about. So people think they want to work in the industry. And the only thing they've ever a local MSL in their geography maybe met with as a clinician. So they see that and they're not aware of the different then. I mean, geography is a big part of this. We know that companies still aren't that open to remote employees. So being an MSL is a career where, whether you live in Kentucky or you live in San Diego like a hotbed for biotechs, you can be a part of the pharma industry.
[00:20:19] Speaker A: Absolutely.
And I know from my perspective, it seemed like people like the idea of traveling and talking about science and actually getting paid for it.
It does sound pretty glamorous. It sounds amazing.
One of the things that I try to emphasize to my listeners is, yes, I went to Hawai. Yes, Hawaii is beautiful, but I was in tights and high heels, going from meeting to meeting, walking past all the honeymooners and all the day drinkers by the pool. Yes, you could say you're in Hawaii, but are you really? It's totally hotel room. It's just another ball.
[00:21:07] Speaker B: Mm hmm. Yeah. Usually when I talk to people that want to be msos, I ask them, do you have a friend or a previous colleague that does it? Because you've got to understand what their lifestyle is like. Because if you know someone close like that, you'll know, hey, it's a grind just like every other kind of job, just a different kind. You're hitting the pavement, you're getting a lot of miles behind the windshield, a lot of frequent flyers. And it takes a certain kind of personality to like and thrive in that.
[00:21:40] Speaker A: Absolutely. And I'm going to add, it takes a special kind of partner to be okay with that, too.
We also have three dogs. We don't have three kids. We have zero two legged children, but we do have a house full of dogs and cats. And even when I was traveling and there was only two dogs at the mean, we lived in Portland, Oregon. My husband was there in the rain all the time, wiping off muddy paws and trying to do his job and trying to take care of the house and trying to make sure that. And it took some time for us to adjust because, yeah, you're on the road Monday or Tuesday, all the way to Thursday or Friday, and you're living out of a suitcase, and then you come home for a few days and then you leave again. And my colleagues who are parents have said it's brutal sometimes leaving your little one behind. And so it does take a special mindset for yourself, but also for the people around you. To say, no, this is worth it. This is important, and we're going to do the grind together. For this amount of time that you're.
[00:22:46] Speaker B: Doing this, I think you have to have a good support system in place. It was funny because I was talking to my dad before I joined this podcast, and I told him what I was going to be talking about, and he said, well, we did it. We had a lot of fun doing it and noticed that I said we because it was never I. It was definitely, my parents were a big part of helping with my children and just making everything happen. And we also had a nanny. I mean, there was a lot of different moving parts in our household for a lot of years.
[00:23:18] Speaker A: Wow.
And it must have been difficult for you to just say, no, I can't help with this right now. Somebody else has to do this. I mean, scientists tend to be type a types, and so that must have been difficult.
[00:23:35] Speaker B: We're really good friends now, but I'm always like, I'm so sorry if I think about the way that I dealt with things now. You always think later, like, oh, man, I bet it was not the easiest.
[00:23:45] Speaker A: To work with, even when I dropped my dog off somewhere to stay overnight, like, here's her food and here's her treat and here's her favorite toy, and then make sure.
And my husband's like, here's the dog leave. And I'm like.
[00:24:00] Speaker B: It is true.
[00:24:02] Speaker A: So then what was the transition like then when you decided, so you had this long career as an MSL, and then at what point did you decide that you wanted to mentor MSL and become self employed?
[00:24:15] Speaker B: Yeah, it wasn't really like this set decision, I'll be honest with you with that. The last job that I had was I started right before COVID and it was probably two years of my most fulfilling and my favorite time in the industry. I was working for a very small biotech. I was doing a lot of things at that time, building out our digital plan, like with digital opinion leaders doing some different things. But I also knew that it was likely that our drug wasn't going to get moved forward. So in the back of my head, I was trying to be strategic a little bit, but I don't think I knew what kind of path I was taking. And I wish people would understand that if you try to make this linear path, it usually isn't going to work. So you just have to trust a little bit and just make little tiny decisions along the way. And when I look back now, I can see where the path was taking me, but during the moment, I really didn't. But I can tell you I started to learn LinkedIn for my last biotech job because the type of kols that I was covering were on LinkedIn. So it was a very distinct specialty, and they were on LinkedIn and they were also on Twitter. So I'm not on Twitter anymore, but I used to be very heavily on Twitter as well, learning the social aspects of that and how to best get insights from that. So if someone would have asked me back then, I probably would have said I would stayed in a digital innovation type role in the industry. That's what kind of my career was looking like. And I don't know exactly what happened. I wish I could tell you this led to this led to this, but we're on a podcast today, so I can tell you that I volunteered to be on a podcast to talk about podcasts and digital things. And with met, you know, Tom Caravella, who I work with now. And people laugh at this story because they really don't believe it. But I literally was just a guest on the podcast. And then we became had. We read a lot of the same books, we had a lot of the same philosophies.
And he's a recruiter, he owns this big recruiting firm. So when I got downsized, I sent him a message and I said, hey, don't contact me.
I'm not going to go back to being an MSL. And he's like, well, what are you going to do? And we had this conversation. I said, I don't know. I need a little bit of time. I was either going to start look at digital innovation jobs or start to teach people how to build a personal brand. I was thinking I was targeting physicians. There were a lot of different things in my head, but Tom proposed. He's like, hey, have you ever thought about being a recruiter?
Heck no. Who thinks about being a recruiter? Talk about no. So that's where I just wish people would keep an open mind, because you just never know. So we had a series of conversations over a couple of weeks. I wouldn't say it was that long because I'm a really decisive person and I'm like, what do I have to lose?
We talked about it, and it was a lot of the things that I like to do, which is research companies find talent is no different, really, than finding answers to questions. I know it sounds weird, but it's a very similar thing to my drug information background. So I'm really long winded. Usually I'm not this much. But I think the important lesson is it wasn't a plan and it just ended up and my career has evolved in the last two years. We didn't plan that December, whatever year it would have been, 2021. We didn't plan to start a coaching program for aspiring msls. Then, as we saw needs, we just started to create things. And that's how my last couple of years have been.
[00:28:06] Speaker A: That's very refreshing, honestly, Sarah, because I started with a plan and then said yes to opportunities and said no to other opportunities and where I'm at right now because of the connections that I have made along the way and the opportunities that I said yes to and the people who I've been introduced to along the way. And so I really like that it almost always starts with some kind of a serendipitous event, and then you find yourself in your dream job. I mean, obviously there's a lot of hustle and work that goes along with that. It's not a fairy tale. But I mean, you're absolutely right. When you look back, you think, yeah, I can see. I love how you said the things that didn't happen for you actually led you to where you're at. And I remember so many times getting turned down for a grant or getting turned down for a fellowship or whatever, and just feeling like when you're young, especially like, my world is ending.
Oh, my God.
And then you realize later, like, oh, wow. Yeah, because of that, I end up doing this and then that got me to here. And it's really kind of neat when you look back on it and think about it in those terms.
[00:29:24] Speaker B: 100%.
[00:29:29] Speaker A: Actually. So let's talk about online branding, since you say that that's one of your favorite topics.
And this is going to be partly for the listeners and partly for me because I'm trying to build my online podcast brand, primarily on Instagram, somewhat on LinkedIn as well. I won't touch Twitter with like a 40 foot pole.
[00:29:48] Speaker B: Yeah, me either.
[00:29:50] Speaker A: No Twitter. Thank you very much.
But for the listeners who are like trainees, for example, they are thinking about pursuing careers in industry. What advice do you have about starting to build an online brand?
[00:30:05] Speaker B: Well, I think the first thing is just to know that you have to. It's not should you, it's 2024. If you're not, you're just going to be left behind. And whether it's things like your grants or publications or being invited to podcasts, like all these different things and these opportunities are out there, but you're not going to know about them if you don't have a personal brand. And the funny part is you're creating one whether you want to or not. So if you don't have a LinkedIn picture or you have an old one, or you've got some old things, some junk things showing up, if someone googles you, that's your personal brand. So you do have one. So it's up to you to build it the way that you want to have it. And people say to me almost on a daily basis, well, I'm not a bragger, I'm just not into that.
[00:30:55] Speaker A: Well.
[00:30:58] Speaker B: Personal branding is not bragging at all. It's about the person that you are and just being transparent and honest about what you can bring and what you do. And so when I got the last job I had in industry, I didn't have a LinkedIn picture. I had nothing like that. Things were very different.
But we are in a digital world now.
That's the very first thing that an employer is going to do is Google your name. They're going to look you up on LinkedIn. And again, you never know what side opportunities you're going to get because of your brand. So I think just make decisions very carefully about what you put out there because you can't take it back either.
I think the biggest mistake, and you didn't ask me this question, but I'm just going to take the opportunity to share it if it's okay. The biggest mistake I see with people out there thinking that posting is better than not, is posting about the hardships that they're under and how they can't get a job or just the frustrations on their daily basis with their manager. And that's your build personal brand, then now you're building this personal brand that you're a difficult person to work with or even if it's not your fault and you have the worst manager ever, if that's the kind of stuff you're putting out there, that's what you're building. LinkedIn isn't. Well, I'll tell you, I don't think you should be putting on Instagram or Facebook either, unless you're very careful about being private, because people find it's, it's just the way that it, I mean, there's this huge opportunity out there. You just have to be willing to do it on a step by step basis. And LinkedIn is just amazing the opportunities that you can get off of that platform.
[00:32:50] Speaker A: I love that.
I want to repeat what you said, which is building this online brand is not bragging.
[00:32:58] Speaker B: No.
[00:33:00] Speaker A: Because again, just coming from the science background, we are taught that we are cogs in the wheel.
We are standing on the shoulders of proverbial giants, and we're all just here to do our little part. And it's about us. It's not about me, it's about us.
And when you go online and someone takes a photo of you giving a talk and you put it online or you put, I got this grant, I got my paper published. It can feel a little bit wrong to do that because you're trained to think this way. But I love what you said. It's not bragging. If you don't put it out there, no one else is going to do it for you.
[00:33:44] Speaker B: Yeah. No. And the other way to think about it is if you're putting out your grant or you're putting out that picture of yourself, how can that benefit someone else? So if you are talking about a specific disease state, can you put some educational content out there with it? So then it's not just like, oh, I'm thankful that I was able to present or I'm thankful that I got published, put out there what the message is that helps the end user and it looks a lot less braggy and just helpful to the end person.
[00:34:14] Speaker A: That's a really good point. Yeah, I really like that.
So let's talk about Aspire MSL, because I learned a little bit about this community just before we jumped on to the days leading up to this interview. And I really like this idea that you have a community of people who are all shooting towards the same goal and you're kind of supporting each other. So could you share some of the best practices, say, for resumes or for interviews? Because for a lot of people, the hardest part is getting that foot in the door.
[00:34:52] Speaker B: Yeah, we can start with the resume. So I would say my biggest advice for the resume is don't use a service. So don't send your resume away and have someone do it for you. I like done with you services in our program, we do it with you. It's a template. You build it and then we'll review it, we'll help you with it. But I really think it's important for people not to send it away to this fancy resume service and get it back that has this picture and then these bullets that you can't even really convey. And then you sound different in the interview than you do on your resume. So I like consistency and that's your personal brand. You're going to be consistent on your resume, your LinkedIn profile, all the way through the interview, same person. This is you. It's not just looking fake on a resume. We want it to portray you. So that's the biggest advice I can give on the resume. Well, I'll add one more thing, because this is a pet peeve of mine, too.
You don't have to have this one page resume. You're a PhD. Your resume shouldn't be a page like you've done all these things. I really dislike the idea that you've got to drill it all down and that people won't read it past the one page. We absolutely will. We don't need the old cv, the academic style, but you can have whatever is appropriate on that resume. And then I guess the other questions, as far as preparing to be in MSO or just to prepare to get into industry, we already talked a little bit about LinkedIn, but your LinkedIn profile is very important. What you have on there, your about section, your tagline, the keywords that you use, those are all very valuable.
And interviewing, I mean, just knowing how to walk and talk like an MSO is what you've got to do to stand out.
[00:36:43] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure.
I think that's a really good point, because a lot of people, I think, like you said, they like the idea of being an MSL, but they are particularly introverted. They're not comfortable talking to strangers. They're not comfortable just walking into an office and introducing themselves and talking about handing over a business card and starting a conversation. So for those, people usually say, that is not your only option. Medical affairs encompasses a whole boatload of things, including writing, including standardized response letters and other aspects of medical information. I mean, there's a lot of other jobs that you can do that maybe can just keep you behind your desk in your comfort zone because you should be miserable when you're going into a job.
[00:37:29] Speaker B: Correct? Agree.
[00:37:32] Speaker A: I like that aspect of authenticity throughout, from your resume to how you present yourself and your online profile and everything. I think that's really great in terms of interview etiquette. One of the things that I like to emphasize to people is that they should always make sure to research their interviewers ahead of time.
Julie Tetslaf on this podcast, you'll appreciate this as a Midwesterner, she was interviewing for a job in Boston, but she found out that I think it was either the COO of the company or one of the higher ups in the company was from Wisconsin, like she is. And so she was able to make comments about the latest packer game, and he just lit up like a Christmas tree. And they had this amazing interview, and boom, she got herself a job. So it kind of goes back to serendipity a little bit. You find something that you have in common with the person that you're interviewing with, or you mention, hey, I read this paper of yours, or I saw this video that you did recently. It really does go a long way.
Do you agree with this, or do you think there are other ways to go about interview etiquette or interview process?
[00:38:48] Speaker B: No. And I'm going to add, everything you said is such good advice. And it's also what mSLs do with kols. So if you do interview setting, then the hiring manager is going to look at you and think, oh, this person did the homework before they met with me. They're going to do the same thing with Kols, because the last thing you want to do is go cold in with a kol and start asking them questions. So where'd you go to school when you can find all that on Google, right?
[00:39:13] Speaker A: Totally.
[00:39:15] Speaker B: Those are really good etiquette tips.
[00:39:17] Speaker A: And actually, I'll tell you a story about the one time it bit me in the butt, because I did reach out to a doctor. I reached out to a Kol for a first interaction, asking him if he wouldn't mind if I came over and just talk about this exciting new thing that we had going on. And his response was, yes, I was a co author on one of the phase two articles. I know everything I need to know. And I felt about this big, yeah, it happened.
[00:39:44] Speaker B: It's happened to all of us.
[00:39:46] Speaker A: But it was one of those moments, like, right, maybe do a little bit even before an email. Like, I wasn't even going in to talk to this guy. I had all the time in the world, and I didn't even do a preliminary Google scholar search or something. And I was so embarrassed.
So then, I guess from your vantage point, what are you excited about in pharma these days?
[00:40:13] Speaker B: Well, obviously, the gene therapies, I think, are exciting.
I think the biosimilars are exciting to me just to see how it changes the course of our health system.
I think we can all agree that a lot of that needs revamping. So I'm excited to see so many of those and msls covering those. That really is intriguing to me. I think I'm excited just to see how msls evolve in the next five years, because it's a very competitive. It's not just competitive to become an MSL. It's very competitive to get in with Kols to get time.
So how are you going to set yourself apart? What value can you bring? So I find all those exciting, and then obviously I find the social media aspect and the dols, like digital opinion leaders, most exciting. That's where I think I remember telling my boss this would have been back in 2020, like, well, we need to figure out who does podcasts as far and talks about osteoarthritis. And they all kind of laughed at me. It was kind of like, yeah, no one's going to listen to podcasts. Well, look at now, look how many medical podcasts there are. And they only laughed at me for a day. Then once I made a list and started the show, you can't just say something, you got to back up information. But I think those kind of things, how we share data, I mean, I can keep going. A lot of things excite me, obviously.
[00:41:44] Speaker A: I think that's great. And I wanted to ask you that, because as these pharmaceutical fields evolve, there's going to be new topic areas. And for those new topic areas, we're going to need msls. And so that's my sneaky way of saying, what could some people be thinking about now in terms mean how many people are using CRISPR in the lab? I mean, it seems like everyone I talk to is doing something with CRISPR, or they were doing flocks changes in gene expression or optogenetics or something. I mean, these are all things that you might be doing now, but you can build on and think about how this could become a therapeutic and how that would benefit patients and what would be something that would turn a patient off to this particular therapeutic versus make them excited about a particular therapeutic.
And we would have thought 20 years ago, before we had injectable VEGF inhibitors, and we would have thought nobody would get a shot in their eye every month. I mean, it was like a nightmare and unbelievable.
Although I always wonder why dentists still somehow are in the 18th century.
We can do the most amazing things, but oh, my God, looks like torture devices.
[00:43:12] Speaker B: Good point. It's so true. It's so true.
[00:43:16] Speaker A: If any of the dental students out there, please do something to make it better, because all of us.
I got a root canal a couple of months ago and I was looking around because they left me alone for a few minutes and I was just looking around, what are those? And they literally said, don't worry about it.
[00:43:36] Speaker B: Not good. I have my. So thanks for the reminder there.
[00:43:43] Speaker A: Then they said, would you like nitrous? And I said yes, please.
[00:43:46] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. Give me that.
[00:43:48] Speaker A: It's going to be a little extra. That's okay. Just.
So in the last few minutes, what do you want us to know about the Carolyn group, and what do you want us to know about Aspire MSL?
[00:44:03] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, the Carolyn group know we are a recruiting firm that focuses on medical affairs. So almost all of the jobs that we get are going to be for experienced medical affairs professionals. So that's number one. I have a lot of people reaching out saying, can you help me get a job? Probably not. I'm probably going to be your person that's going to be hounding you after you've been in the industry for a couple of years. So the Aspire MSL program, is that segue? Because honestly, Tom, the owner of our firm, and I get so many messages on a daily basis just asking, hey, can I pick your brain? Can we have an informational interview? If I did that, I'd be on the phone 24 hours a day. I would never have any. So we took all of that information, we put it into a course, and that's what Aspire MSO is. So it's a course on how to break into the industry, specific to the MSO role. The course does have a lot of live components, so we don't just leave you hanging. We help you step by step with some group coaching. We've got an app so you can get your questions answered. I love the program. I could talk about the program for an hour, so you'll have to shut me up. But the one thing I'll tell you is seeing the people work together and is just life changing. And they're not going against each other because they live in different geographies. So they're giving tips.
This is what my experience was. They're giving their practice presentations to each other.
They're building bonds. And I tell them, you guys are probably going to work together in the future. You know, they will, because maybe not their first job, but probably two jobs. They're going to be like, hey, we were in aspire MSL together, and so it's networking before you're even in the industry. So it's a wonderful.
[00:45:51] Speaker A: That is so know, if you and I were in the program together and you got an MSL position, and then they said, hey, we're looking for somebody in Florida, you would say, I think I know.
Is that is a phenomenal idea.
[00:46:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
It's been so much fun to work with.
[00:46:14] Speaker A: How does that differ from a certification program? And do you see value in MSL certification programs? Because they're out there and they're more than happy to take your money. So, I mean, how does this differ from certification?
[00:46:26] Speaker B: Yeah, Tom and I thought a lot about whether or not we were going to do any kind of certificate from our program. It was actually a lot of conversations back and forth, and he and I both have the opinion you can't really certify someone as an MSL.
As an MSL, you have to have really sound scientific acumen, but you also have to have the communication skills and you can go through a course. But just because you do the course doesn't mean that you're going to be able to get a job. So the way that I think we have framed our program is we're going to do everything in our power to get you a job. We're not teaching you to be an MSO. We're taking your scientific acumen. We're teaching you the lingo, we're teaching you the interview process, how to change your scientific presentation a little bit, to make it more of a story and sell yourself per se, without selling. But the whole idea is to get a job, not to certify you in anything. So it was a very conscious decision that we didn't want to do. And I think I don't have any opposition to the certification programs that are out there. I don't know that much about them, to be honest. But as a recruiter, I get a lot of incoming messages that say I'm certified as an MSO. And unfortunately, that doesn't mean anything to me.
I want to know what you've done and how that transfers. So a certificate doesn't tell me that, and it doesn't set you apart. I wish it did, but what will set you apart is your LinkedIn profile, your bullets, your resume, telling me, here's what I did in my publication and why it matters and the disease state, that type of thing. So hopefully that answered your question. It's a very tough one. I see a lot of certifications, period, in the industry. And I always tell people when they ask me, I think for regulatory affairs, I think they're important because you're learning a specific pathway and you learned that FDA how to do this, and it's a very how to thing. I don't feel that way right now about the medical affairs, per se.
[00:48:39] Speaker A: I completely agree, because we started hearing about the certifications after I became an MSL, and my initial gut reaction was the same as yours, Sarah.
Why would I go through the process and spend the money to have someone say, yes, you are, but just because you go through a program doesn't mean you're good at whatever it is.
I passed my accounting class in my MBA program. But you do not want me doing your accounting.
[00:49:13] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:49:16] Speaker A: But yes, someone will say, oh, yeah, she took accounting. Yeah.
To me it was the same idea. Why would you go through the process when you probably would do you better to talk to other msls and try to get interviews and pick up on best practices from as many people as you can possibly.
[00:49:38] Speaker B: Exactly.
And you don't have to pay any kind of coaching program. You can do it yourself.
A lot of the things that when we talk about aspire MSO, I say, if you want to do it faster and you want to do it with a little bit more fun, a little less stress, then come join our program. If you want to go Google and figure it all out on your own, you 100% can. But if you want, like a roadmap here to here to get there a little faster, then do it.
[00:50:06] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I think that's absolutely right. What other ways? So, to back up some of the things that I talk to people about when they ask about networking, because maybe they feel like they don't get a ton of networking options because they don't get to go to a lot of conferences or whatever, I usually recommend that they either look up online communities or they google.
My audience is primarily women. So I'll say, look up like women in STEM conferences in your area, or if there's women pharmacists Midwest, and usually there are these types of small little associations. And the Society for Neuroscience has local chapters all over the US, and women ophthalmology is starting to have local chapters. So I feel like those are good opportunities to go meet people, at least on a smaller scale. And you either talk to the vendors or you talk to some of the other.
I mean, I would be hard pressed to find anybody who would look at me and say, why are you asking me what I do? I mean, everyone seems so if you go up to a vendor and say, excuse me, I'm interested in your company, what do you do? I've never had a single person say, please leave me alone.
Right. What are the recommendations you have for people who need to practice networking or maybe want to start making connections?
[00:51:36] Speaker B: Well, the last thing you said is probably the most important thing I can just emphasize, which is you went up to that booth and you asked them about them. So networking is about going and asking the other person for advice or about them. And if you make it that way and you don't go in and say, I'm a pharmacist and yeah, I went to pharmacy school at da da da, and here's my life history, it's probably not going to go very well. But if you go in with questions for them, no matter who the audience is, it's hard to mess up. Like if you're genuinely interested. So it doesn't matter if know at your local community center, at your Iowa Pharmacy association, anything, you can go and you can do it. Just be prepared to ask people about themselves. Everybody likes to talk about themselves.
But I'll tell you one thing about written networking that I think is a good lesson, too, just because so much is virtual. Now think about the way that you're writing your communication. And if you would say that to someone in person, if you wouldn't say to someone, can you help me find a job? That's probably not going to be the first thing that you're going to say, so don't write it. And that's a really good way to just change your whole philosophy on online networking, too.
[00:52:52] Speaker A: Agreed. I actually think that schools should offer some sort of business communication, email communication course for that exact reason.
[00:53:02] Speaker B: Yes, agree.
[00:53:05] Speaker A: I was recently at my alma mater a couple of months ago, and they were talking about how they do have a presentation course, but the only presentations that they practice are the research and progress seminars.
Maybe here's how you give a 30 minutes version of your dissertation talk and maybe a ten minute version, and there might be a disease state talk in there, but no one seems to talk about how to write a good email, how to write a good tweet. I mean, my husband has to coach me on how to write a good LinkedIn post, but also a good Instagram post. I'm like, for sure, what am I doing wrong? How do I do this? And he's like, you are way too verbose in so many of these because I'm still in that science writer mean. I wish colleges and universities would start offering courses like this. I think they would just be immensely beneficial.
[00:54:01] Speaker B: Very good point, throwing that out there in the universe.
[00:54:06] Speaker A: I do not want to take up too much of your time, Sarah, but I mean, is there anything else? If people want to find you, obviously they can find you on LinkedIn, but where can they learn more?
[00:54:17] Speaker B: Yeah, so you can find me on LinkedIn. It's just Sarah Snyder on LinkedIn. Actually, I guess it'd be Sarah Miller Snyder. So you can probably link to that. And then I do have my own podcast. So I know you mentioned you run you weightlift. So my podcast is the running after age 40 podcast. And the website is runningwithgrid.com. So the podcast is all obviously about running after the age of 40. It's more mental and just nutrition, talking, things like that versus any kind of running racing information.
And then, yeah, the Aspire MSL program. We are so excited about that program. You can find all the
[email protected]. And I'm always willing to do a 15 minutes call to see if we think that we'd be able to help you. And so people can just easily set that up on my calendar.
[00:55:10] Speaker A: That's wonderful.
Dr. Sarah Snyder, thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate you being on the vegetable order podcast today.
[00:55:20] Speaker B: Thank you so much. This was a lot of fun.
[00:55:22] Speaker A: Thank you.
Thank you so much again, Dr. Sarah Snyder for joining us again. You can find Sarah on LinkedIn. You can find her podcast anywhere you get your podcasts. And, yeah, do me a favor, please rate and review us on Apple podcasts or on YouTube. That would be super helpful. And we'll see you next time. Thanks for listening.
