Science for Your Country - With Dr. Kristin Herring

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome back to the Bench to Boardroom podcast. I am your host, Cynthia Steele. We did take a little break after our Arvo recordings because, well, we needed to recover. And we are back with a phenomenal episode today. I know I say that about all the episodes, but today's you're going to want to listen to a couple of times. It's phenomenal. And today's guest is doctor Kristen Herring, who has a PhD in biochemistry from Vanderbilt University. And what makes Kristen such a fascinating guest is she is the first person I've interviewed who has had a career in government using her PhD in biochemistry. So early on at Vanderbilt, she realized that a career in academics wasn't for her. And towards the end of her time, she applied for and became a presidential management fellow. And you can find out more information about that. Anyone within a year before graduating or within two years post graduation is eligible to apply. And you can find out more information at PMF dot Gov. So again, PMF Gov. So as a presidential management fellow, Kristen was exposed to so many opportunities in government using science. And so she worked at the Defense threat Reduction Agency, which she refers to as DTRA. She worked at the secret service, which is very, very cool. And now she and I work together at the same agency called ARPA H. So I really want to emphasize, before we get going, I really want to emphasize to all of you there are positions out there and you do qualify, even if you're looking at it from the outside saying, what the heck would the secret Service want with someone with expertise in biochemistry? They do. And you should just apply anyway. And I'm going to let Kristen tell you more because her career path is absolutely fascinating. So if you don't believe me, believe. Doctor Kristen Herring. Doctor Kristen Herring, welcome to venge Board room. [00:02:27] Speaker B: Thank you. Thanks. [00:02:29] Speaker A: I am so excited to have you here because I think your career trajectory is so freaking cool. And I think my guests are going to find it really, really cool, too. [00:02:39] Speaker B: So somebody thinks it's cool because at the time, like, when I was going through it, I was like, what is it? Especially my parents are like, what are you doing? Like, stay at it, please. [00:02:50] Speaker A: You know, you're in good company because honestly, maybe you find it difficult, too. But, like, we work at the same government agency now as contractors, and I had the hardest time explaining what we do to, like, my parents. My parents definitely don't get it. Most people don't get it. [00:03:05] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, same. [00:03:07] Speaker A: So you're. You're in good company. My parents set in for my dissertation defense, and I'm pretty sure they just, like, smiled and nodded and, you know, thumbs up. [00:03:15] Speaker B: Like, that was my dad, definitely. Yeah, my dad definitely tried to understand, like, the entire five years I was in school. It's like, now explain to me again. [00:03:26] Speaker A: But see, I like people who do that because I'll do that, too. Like, explain to me, like, I'm a high school freshman. Okay. Explain to me like, I'm in 6th grade, and then we just keep going backwards until I finally understand. [00:03:35] Speaker B: So, yeah. [00:03:37] Speaker A: Anyway, why don't you introduce yourself to the audience before we get carried away? [00:03:40] Speaker B: Yeah, of course. So, Kristen Herring. I am currently a contractor at ARPA H advanced research Projects agency for health. I got my bachelor's at Spelman College in Atlanta, Georgia, and then went on to get my PhD in biochemistry at Vanderbilt University. So, yeah, happy to be here. [00:04:00] Speaker A: Awesome. We're so excited to have you. So, I guess my first question is, what got you interested in science and what got you interested in chemistry? [00:04:08] Speaker B: So this is a true story. A lot of people are like, what? This makes no sense. So, high school, I loved science. Soap operas, because my mom and my grandmother watched soap operas. And so our soap opera of choice was General Hospital. [00:04:23] Speaker A: I was gonna ask. [00:04:23] Speaker B: And this. Yeah, General Hospital. So this is at the time, right? Like, AIDS epidemic was, you know, huge thing. And so one of the characters, or General Hospital Robin, who was, I think, at the time, she was a teenager, so she was a little bit older than me, but not much older. She ended up getting HIV, and it was just, like, devastating. Right. This is a character that I was attached to, so I was just like, I want to do research so I can find a cure for AIDS to help Robin. I mean, I understood that, like, this wasn't a real person, but still. So that is 100% the reason that I wanted to do research. I knew I enjoyed science and math, but, like, that was it for me. I was like, I'm going to do AIDS research. Like, that's what I entered graduate school saying I was going to. Didn't end up doing it, but, yeah, that's. That's why. Because of soap operas. So, yeah, tv can be good for something. [00:05:16] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. And, I mean, most of us have some kind of a personal story like that either. You know, we saw a movie like, I. Do you remember the movie regarding Henry? [00:05:25] Speaker B: Yes. [00:05:26] Speaker A: With Harrison Ford. [00:05:28] Speaker B: Yes. [00:05:29] Speaker A: I loved that movie. I thought it was fascinating how, you know, a frontal lobe injury could cause these, like, crazy personality changes or the other one that I used to really appreciate, but it always made me cry was Lorenzo's oil, you know, because here's somebody who tries to figure out, like, exactly which. Which lipid or which component of myelin is missing in this child. And, you know, it was. It was. It would always make me cry, but it was always so interesting to think, like, wow, this one thing can cause this enormous, this crazy, devastating phenotype, you know? So, yeah, I think those are the best kind of movies that do that. [00:06:09] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. [00:06:11] Speaker A: Or tv shows, in your case. [00:06:12] Speaker B: I love it. [00:06:14] Speaker A: So then, did you end up doing HIV research? [00:06:17] Speaker B: I did not. So, at Vanderbilt, and one of the reasons why I chose Vanderbilt was because, you know, even though I knew, yes, I wanted to do AIDS research, I didn't. You know, I really wanted to see what else was out there to do. So, Vanderbilt, your first year, you enter into an interdisciplinary program, and so, basically, you take modules of lots of different things, which was great, because at Spelman, I was a biochemistry major, but really, at the time, it was more of a track. So it was really a chemistry degree where we took maybe two biochem classes. So I was like, well, I need to actually know what other areas of biomedical research are there. And so in the interdisciplinary graduate program IGP at Vanderbilt, we did, like, six to eight weeks of endocrinology. We did immunology, like, so all those different things. And so also, as part of that, you had an opportunity to rotate. I think it was within three to four laboratories before you actually had to decide which lab you wanted to do research in. And I actually. I don't think I actually did a rotation in an HIV lab at all. I did one in, like, an endocrinology lab. So it was like a diabetes lab with dogs, which was very interesting. Yeah. Like, we did research on beagles, which, you know, at the time, I didn't. I have a dog now, but at the time, I didn't have a pet. I was like, oh, it's no problem. I can handle it. And I remember the very first day I had to go in, and they were like, okay, well, we do surgeries on the animals. We have to do it really early because, you know, people don't do to will when they see beagles, right. Coming down the hall, right. So we get there at 04:00 in the morning, do surgeries, and so we're sitting up there, and they said, well, here's a chair for you, because you're likely going to get lightheaded because it's gonna be too much. I was like, what are you talking about? I'm fine. I'll be fine. Sure enough, I don't know, maybe 2030 minutes into, I was like, yeah, this is too much. I can't do this. I was like, you know, like doing the research and then you don't have to sacrifice the dogs. At the end of the day, it was just too much. So, yeah, decided didn't really want to do that. Like, I couldn't do that for five years, that sort of research. I can't even remember what the other laboratory I was in, like, other rotation, but the one I ended up doing was a mass spectrometry lab. And so really more analytical chemistry, but applying it to solve biological problems. And so I was in a Maori mass spectrometry laboratory. So Maori is matrix assisted laser desorption ionization. So basically, think about shooting a laser at a tissue and you have a matrix, some sort of solvent that will co crystallize with whatever is in the tissue to absorb some of the energy from the laser. And then once the laser hits it and it fires everything off, you are able to get whatever's in the tissue off to travel down to measure the mass. And so we use it in our laboratory to construct images of tissues, disease states. And so my research was looking at protein markers of drug induced kidney toxicity. So antibiotics are notorious for damaging your kidneys. And so we were trying to figure out what could we learn from the proteome, using proteomics and imaging to kind of figure out, are there early predictors that would say, okay, this drug is going to end up causing nephrotoxicity? So that's the laboratory that I ended up in. It was really cool. I got an opportunity to work with. So pharmaceutical companies, because, you know, at the time, they were really just using radio labeling, which is great, except that really, when you construct those images, you are following that tag, so you don't actually know if the drug is actually still attached to it. Right. Could be metabolized, it could have fallen off. And so using mald mass spectrometry, because, you know, the molecular weight of the drug or protein or whatever it is that you're tracking, you know, that is actually what you're seeing in the image. So, yeah, that was my graduate work. Enjoyed it. [00:10:31] Speaker A: Now, I hear you there, and I apologize to anyone who may have been offended by the mention of research in Beagle dogs. I personally don't talk about it very much. In this house, we have three dogs. But no, you know, that's why I did cell work. You know, I couldn't, I couldn't even inject rats. I hated it, you know, that it made me so sad. [00:10:52] Speaker B: That was. Yeah, that was horrible. [00:10:54] Speaker A: They squeaked, they moved. They were, you know, mad. And then I was upset, and it just was a disaster. So ultimately, I was really drawn to my area of research, in part because I thought it was fascinating, but it meant I could just grow, like, immortalized human cells and occasionally get, like, primary tissue from, you know, discarded, you know, rims of people's corneas and things like that. So, like, okay, I don't have to deal with animals. I don't have to deal with, you know, cleaning cages or any behavior things. And I don't have to go home feeling horribly guilty every day, you know, and it was all those things. So you are in. You are in good company when it comes to that. And so I guess while you're doing all of this, all this Maldi research, which, thank you for the reminder. I was trying to dig in my memory. Like, I remember the term, but it's one of those things. When I read it in a paper, I kind of gloss over it, like, write chemistry, chemistry, chemistry. And I'm a cell biologist. I think it's larger than electrons. But while you're doing this, I mean, on those days that you and I ask everyone this question, on those days where you were like, forget it. I'm done. I cannot do this anymore. What were you gonna run off and do? What was your fantasy? [00:12:11] Speaker B: So it's funny you ask, because, like, literally, I don't know, it probably was my second or third day of graduate school. I was like, I don't think I want to do this. This isn't. I can't do this all day, every day. Like, what did I get myself into? What else can I do where my family won't feel like, you know, I was a failure? That sort of thing. And so my classmates. I had two other classmates, and there was a McDonald's on Vanderbilt's campus. And I kid you not, we would meet up in at least once a week and talk about, okay, what other job are we going to do? And so we went through several iterations we were going to own. So at the time, I can't remember the name of, like, the women's gym. I was like, I just franchise a women's gym. There's, like, low overhead. I can find some people who work that. It'd be fine. Then we're like, oh, maybe we could own a cc's pizza. It's like, oh, that seems like a lot of work, we have to have employees. Like, then I was like, well, there was a point in time where I thought about being a pharmacist. I was like, so maybe I would go do pharmacy school, but I had a friend who was in pharmacy school, and she's like, this really isn't any better. You know, just probably stay where you are. So, yeah, those are the top three things that I discussed doing. [00:13:23] Speaker A: I know, and I love that because so far, almost everyone I've asked, it's been some sort of a service based position that they want, you know, something that relatively simple. And you have, maybe you have customers, but for the most part, your customers are happy. And if you, you know, say you put, like, too much pepperoni on a pizza, that's not going to destroy your entire day. Your customer is probably going to be happy about that. You open the gym, and maybe it's like a degree, like, too warm or too cold. Like, okay, okay, I'll just adjust that. It's an easy, fixable problem, you know? Yeah, I love it. Exactly. Mine was my very first guest on this podcast ever. Doctor Alicia case and I, we were going to open a cupcake shop. Like, that was our thing. Every time we would go to this one local meeting, we would meet up at a cupcake shop just to get, like, a really fancy red velvet and, like, you know, a cup of coffee, and we would just watch these people. Like, we could do this. We could totally do this, you know, and just make the cupcakes and you fill them, and then people come and then they leave. Happy. And like, this sounds lovely, you know? [00:14:29] Speaker B: So, so what, what made you stay? I'm just always curious. Like, when I think it was so. [00:14:36] Speaker A: I think it was the good days, you know, the, the good days outweighed the bad, you know? And for me, that was, like, my relationship with research up until a point where I was like, I. I'm sick of writing the feast or famine. It was really the grants and the funding and, like, thinking about the future that really made me think, all right, I need to. I need to switch over to industry because I don't want. I can barely deal with this on my own. And one thing my PI used to always tell me is how happy he would be. You know, we were all in our twenties and thirties, and he would say, you know, I'm always so happy when you guys come to me saying, you know, you're engaged, you're pregnant, your wife is pregnant, you know, you're. You're going to start a family, you're buying a house. Like, these are so wonderful, and these things are things that you should be doing. But I never sleep that night because now your salary relies on me. [00:15:25] Speaker B: Oh, you know, it's not a responsibility. [00:15:28] Speaker A: And I was just like, I can't. I can barely, like, feed myself and my dog. There's no way I'm going to, like, deal with that kind of pressure. I just can't, you know, so then. So I went a different route. But what about you? What kept you in, what kept you every day? [00:15:44] Speaker B: So, I don't know, maybe second or third week of graduate school, I saw a flyer for a meeting on alternative science careers, and I was like, let me go. Listen to this. And so I was probably the only first year graduate student in there. Everyone else was like, fourth or fifth year close, you know, to defending. And I found out about the presidential management fellows program. And quite honestly, that is what kept me in graduate school. It was knowing that there was a light at the end of the tunnel. There were options that I could pursue. [00:16:20] Speaker A: I love it. And that is the perfect segue, Kristen, because what was the. What is the presidential management fellowship? [00:16:27] Speaker B: Yeah. So the presidential management fellows program is a program operated out of the Office of Personnel Management within the federal government. And it was designed to get people who wouldn't normally consider public service or working in the government to actually come to the government. And, you know, when I. So I think I was the very first person at Vanderbilt to actually go through the program. And, you know, they, I think still to this day, are really targeting scientists, because most people are like, why would the government need a scientist unless you are solely doing research? And that's actually not, you know, the bulk of the jobs. That's not it at all. And I oftentimes tell people, you know, really what graduate school does for you, regardless of what your dissertation topic is. It teaches you how to think critically. It teaches you how to look at a problem, go through stepwise, figure out how to solve it, and that's really it. Which, those are skills you can apply to any job. And that's really what the federal government is looking for. Problem solvers, people that can, you know, think creatively. And also in graduate school, you learn how to quickly do research. Right. And find answers to things. And so, again, you can do that in any field. And so, yeah, I did the presidential management fellows program. It's a two year program. And at the time. And so it's different than, like, a AAA's fellowship, which, you know, with presidential management fellows, you are considered a government employee from day one. And at the time, as a AAA's fellow, it was really more like a postdoc situation. You only after you place with an agency where you considered a full time employee. And so the real benefit to the PMF program is that you get to sort of skip that whole USA jobs process that a lot of people, you know, complain about. And so USA jobs is basically kind of like a black box for people who have never, you know, kind of engaged with it, right? This large database of jobs. And you submit your resume and really the hardest part is getting, you know, selected or getting put on a CeRT list, a certification list for an actual person to even interact with you. And so there are lots of, you know, tips and tricks. People say, you know, make sure you have all of the keywords in your resume so that the computer will pull you out of the pile. And so the PMF program, you don't have to do any of that. Basically OPM preselects. And they say, okay, once you're named a finalist, all government agencies, these individuals are perfectly okay for you. So they send your resume is put in this central repository and any agency that wants to hire a PMF can just go into this database, pull you out, either say, hey, let's have an interview or come to us. And so as part of the program, they have a job fair. And so, you know, again, any agency in the area or not, can come to DC and interview. I interview with quite a few agencies. I've never heard of us, space missiles, defense agency. I was like, what is this? Why would they want me? I am a chemist. You know, it was interesting, though, interviewed with NIH, but on their communication side, so they needed someone to be able to speak to the public about science, right? And it is useful to have a scientist to do that, right? But you need to also be able to convey it at a level that people can understand. All right? And so at the end of that, I did have some offers, but I didn't necessarily think any of them were good or were a perfect fit. And so actually, once I got back to Nashville, I got a phone call from a gentleman who ended up becoming my mentor at the defense threat reduction Agency, which was my first job as a PMF. He called and said, hey, I saw your resume and I wanted to know if you would be interested in talking to me about possibly working with the Department of Defense. And I was like, well, doing what? Right? So my dad was military. I was like, what is this about? Like, I don't want to do anything offensive. And he's just like, well, it's with the chem bio defense program. And so I think I even told him, I was like, I don't want to develop weapons. He was like, no, no, no, we don't have an offensive program. He was like, just let me come out and talk to you. So he actually came from Fort Belvoir, Virginia to Nashville and sat with me in the student center and talked to me about the agency and that's where we did my interview. Yeah, that's so cool. And he absolutely changed the entire trajectory of my career. Like, he is 100% the reason that I'm sitting here, you know, today, that we're at the same agency now. It was with that conversation with him. And so, yeah, when he got, he literally, he talked me through. He's like, okay. He's like, even if you decide not to come to my agency, he's like, here's what you need to look for. You know, when you're talking to people, he's like, you know, you're in Nashville, you need to ask for relocation. You know, he literally walked through those things. He's like, they're not going to offer it, but if you ask, then they have to go back to the hiring manager. It's like, you need to ask for student loan repayment. They're not going to offer, but you need to ask for it. Right. And so I was like, oh, this is great information to know. Which, again, plug for the us government. These are all things that are available to you if you work for the federal government. So, yeah, that's how I ended up in the government and, you know, in the presidential management fellows program. [00:22:08] Speaker A: That's so cool. Did you defend before you started the program or was it part of, was it part of graduation? [00:22:15] Speaker B: Yes. So you have to. Yep, you have to defend so you can apply, I think, up to two years after you get your degree. But the timing, if you are going to apply before you actually defend, they just, the guidelines are you have to be within one year of finishing. We all know. What does that mean? Like, you might think you're within one year, your PI might decide. Actually you're not. So it's kind of a gamble, but it worked out. So, yes, I defended and then started at Ditcher. I think it defended November, October, November, and then started at Detroit in December of 2008. Okay. [00:22:56] Speaker A: So then I guess, is that program still going on? Is the, is the fellowship still going on? [00:23:02] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. You know, they, let's see, this is June so the announcement for applications will come out in the fall. And then. So it's a. So each school has their own process for how they select people. So, again, as I said, I was the first scientist to come through Vanderbilt as a presidential management fellow. So there was no process. They were just like, you want to do it? Okay, go ahead and submit your application. I do know some schools are probably now at Vanderbilt just because it's more well known. Some schools will have their own internal selection process. So I would encourage those graduate students to talk to whomever in your office to find out what the process is. But after that, then there's, last time I checked. So they've changed the process several times over the years. There is an online, sort of, like, personality quiz, I guess is the best way to put it, where they ask you, you know, on a scale of, like, one to five, with one being, you know, never, and, like, five being, you know, all the time, how often are you on time? How often, you know, those sort of questions. Right. That sort of thing. And then they also, you know, you submit your resume, and then they scan through those again. At one time, there was an interview portion where, and I actually participated as an interviewer for potential fellows. And they give you a problem. Right. I don't know. Agency X is looking at the effect of pollution in this river. They need $20 million. You know, leadership is not on board. How would you get them on board? Right. So, you know, it's. They'll give you time with it, and then you come back and you present. Also part of that was we wanted to see how you worked in a group, because, again, working in federal government is not an isolated thing. There's a team. And so, which I thought was interesting at the time, we had, I think it was maybe five or six potential fellows in a room with us, and we just literally watched them brainstorm and figure out how they would solve this. And at the end of, you know, the designated time, then they would report back to us how they would, you know, do this. So, yeah, it's super cool program, and, yeah, definitely look out in the fall for anyone who's interested. Once you're named a finalist, you are a finalist for a full year. So even if you aren't able to find a match. [00:25:50] Speaker A: Right. [00:25:51] Speaker B: Or a job immediately, there's a year where an agency can come to you, pull you off the list, and hire you if they're interested. [00:26:00] Speaker A: That's great. And just to go back to what you said about USA jobs, I completely agree, because technically, I was funded by the Department of Veterans affairs while I was in graduate school, and then I had my own career development award through them. And I just remember looking through USA jobs and even just trying to decipher, first of all, acronyms, everything in the government is an acronym. And I think you tossed out like, half a dozen of them during your description, probably. And just because, you know, this is your career, it just kind of rolls off the tug, you know? But our agency's website actually has an acronym dictionary, which I utilize pretty frequently. And I'm always glad that that's available to us. But at the same time, I mean, even just, like, pay scales, like, what is, what is a G's? What does the, what do these different levels mean? And, you know, this is what I'm getting paid at now, but do I qualify for something else? And there's no, like, standard there, and it's so hard to understand. And just like you said, you know, you're approached by Department of Defense and you're like, what the heck do you want with me? I'm a, you know, so I love this idea that you have a little bit more of, like, a personalized experience, you know, that someone actually is there to speak with you and guide you through it. Because, I mean, at this point, I'm guessing you're like, just like most of us were in our late twenties, early thirties, like, I don't know what I'm doing here. I don't even have benefits yet. [00:27:28] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:27:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:30] Speaker B: That was my very first job straight out of graduate school. So I didn't, you know, do a traditional postdoc. I tell people my postdoc was, you know, working for the first two years, you know, as a program manager. I guess the other thing is, you know, the program really seeks to develop the next generation of leaders for the government. And so I can even say at the Defense threat reduction Agency where I started, one of the senior executive service members at the agency is a former presidential management fellow. And so it's because, like, they are intentional. That's really what they are designing it for. So whereas you could absolutely apply for a job on usajobs and have great success at that, but there is not this mapped out path for you to get to, you know, the upper levels of leadership like there is with the presidential management fellows program. You know, it's recognized within the federal government. So when you come in, people automatically like, oh, okay, well, I can trust you to do this. Let me, you know, take you to this opportunity. There was a requirement at the time when I did it, that you had to have at least one external rotation from your agency, because, again, right, someone coming in as knows absolutely nothing about the government. You don't really know how other agencies operate. And again, right, they're training you not to have the job that you're hired into, but to be a leader within the federal government. And really, the only way to do that is to see how other agencies operate. And so, again, because the gentleman, John Connell, who became my mentor, he was just like, I am invested in developing the next generation of leaders at this particular agency. So he allowed me to do three rotations. So, two of which I did at DTRA within different groups, but I did a rotation at the State Department, so I had an opportunity to see, you know, again, night and day between Department of Defense and Department of State, right, where state is all about diplomacy and talking and, oh, let's send a strongly worded DeMarc to this, you know, country leader versus DoD. It's just like, we're gonna have action. We're gonna do this now. It's just night and day. But, you know, it helps with perspective because you can understand, okay, this is the culture of this agency. This is why they do things the way that they do. It's not that it has to be that way because you'll hear that a lot, right? People say, oh, this is policy. It's not really policy. This is just culture. And that's fine. But, yeah, I can't speak any more highly of the program. I recommend it really, to everyone, every, you know, graduate student that I know, I'd say, hey, you should consider this. Even if, you know, you either want to go into academia or you want to go into industry, just apply, you know, it's just another option for you to have. [00:30:23] Speaker A: That's. That's fantastic, because, I mean, for the most part, unless you're really involved in the government, or maybe if you were raised in, like, a military family or a family that's heavily involved in public service, I mean, you would not know any of these things existed. That's so cool. So then what did you learn during your fellowship? What else were you exposed to? So, Dod and Department of State. [00:30:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So the other thing is that there's a training requirement tied to the program as well. So whereas, you know, some agencies, especially with new hires, they might say, oh, we don't have the budget. We don't really have the time. We can't allow you, you know, to go to this conference or to do this training as a requirement. Of the presidential management fellows program. The agency knows when they bring you on, you have to have 80 hours of training. And some of these are already predetermined by the program. So it's basically the. What are they called? They're called ecqs. And I can't remember what the acronym. Acronym is. Qualification. Yeah. For the senior executive service. And because, again, they are training you to be at the top levels of government. And so the same classes that someone would take to be an SES, these are the trainings that they are offering to the presidential management fellows. And so it was amazing trainings, you know, and again, I had an opportunity to go to other agencies. So my job at the Defense production Agency was as a program manager. And so, you know, in graduate school, you understand that there is someone at the government who I guess is technically managing this, right? Because you. You're submitting, you know, updates on your research, that sort of thing. But, you know, to realize that after I got a graduate school, I was that person. I was just like, wow, that's pretty cool. And I would even tell my. My classmates and former lab mates that, yeah, I'm the one that's, you know, making funding decisions. I'm the one that's, you know, reading proposals. [00:32:35] Speaker A: Like. [00:32:35] Speaker B: Wait, what? Like, how is that possible? Oh, yeah, yeah, it was. It was really cool. And, you know, at the time, I was just like, well, how am I gonna use, you know, my maori mass spectrometry background? But one of the very first portfolios that I was assigned to was the diagnostics portfolio at DTRA. And at the time, because imaging mass spectrometry was, you know, so new at the time, I actually saw a proposal. Someone proposed to do maori imaging mass spectrometry to find markers of, you know, injury. And I was like, oh, I can review this, you know, like, that's my background. But, yeah, it. I mean, you know, this, right? Like, every day is something new, even though, yeah, you have your. Your background, but, you know, you might get a proposal that's completely orthogonal to anything that you do. And so you do the research and, you know, you're able to figure it out and see, does this make sense? Is this a good use of taxpayer dollars? But, yeah, it was. It was just great. And just meeting other people, other scientists, because, again, once you're in the government, then you find out, oh, there are other scientists here doing the same thing. Like, why is no one talking about this? [00:33:53] Speaker A: I agree. I mean, since in my six or seven months so far at ArPa H. I mean, the number of just incredibly intelligent people has been mind blowing. Like, the number of people who I have met, like, wait, your degree is in what? Your degree is in neuroscience, and yet you're working, you know, dod, you're working, you know, with DARPA. Like, how did that happen? You know? So this is super encouraging, I think, and I just want to emphasize it, Kristen, that here you are, your chemistry, you know, you're a biochemist and, you know, your dissertations and all chemistry, and yet you found a path through the government that utilizes your expertise but then expands upon your expertise. And, you know, I've certainly had those moments where I've kind of looked around. So, like, how did I get here? You know, how did this happen to me? You know, and why are you asking me this? I don't know anything about this. But you're right. The first thing that we learn is to problem solve. And in some ways, we do learn, like, program management, project management, you know, and that's actually something that was emphasized in a previous episode. Someone said, you are the CEO of your work, so you know how to manage budgets, you know, how to manage, at least how to manage some people, maybe in a classroom setting, maybe, you know, you've got a tech helping you and whatever, you know? So these are all these little tangible skills that we pick up on just as part of our education that we maybe blow off because we still think of ourselves as, like, students, trainees, whatever. But you went straight from being someone who writes the grants to someone who reads the grants, and you did it. That's amazing. [00:35:40] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I won't say, you know, it was. There was always a warm reception, you know, especially right within the DoD, which is very male dominated, older male. You know what? I can remember I went to visit one of the laboratories and I think, see, I must have been 26. Yeah, 26 at a time, right? So I show up and I probably look 20. So I show up and they're like, okay, this is your new program manager. And I think one of the gentlemen looked at me and I'm like, this little girl, right? You know, like, it's so. Yeah, it was definitely an experience, but, yeah, I enjoyed every moment. [00:36:24] Speaker A: It sounds terrifying, if I'm being honest. Hi. I would have been so intimidated. [00:36:32] Speaker B: It was great, right? Because I had an opportunity to visit the DoD laboratories, visit some of the test sites. So things that I never would have imagined I'd have an opportunity to do, I was able to do, just because I took the chance and took job at this DoD agency. [00:36:51] Speaker A: Amazing. [00:36:52] Speaker B: You know, they. They paid for me to get a master's in defense strategic studies, something again that I was like, why would I ever do that? But, you know, I learned really everything about Kim bio defense on the job. But I realized I wanted to understand more of the policy behind it. And so they started, while I was at DTRA, a master's program and fully funded, again, one of the benefits of the government. And I was able to get a master's in that and, you know, learn more about the policy. So, yeah, just can't recommend the presidential management fellows program enough. [00:37:31] Speaker A: That is so cool. But now we have to get to the hook. The job that made me go, oh, my gosh. Tell us what you can without having to kill us about the secret Service. [00:37:45] Speaker B: That's funny. Yeah. People are always so intrigued. So I think I was at Ditcher maybe five years before. I was like, okay, I would like to try something different. So I always explain Dittra, the fence reduction agency, as sort of the NIH, the chem bio defense program. So very early research, which was great, you know, I was just like, well, I'd like to do something. Manage some efforts that are closer to actually getting out the door. Right. Because early research, it could be another 20 years before you ever see, you know, anything. So saw an announcement in usajobs. So this was my first foray into USA jobs for secret Service. And the title of it was chemist. And I was just like, why does Secret Service need a chemist? I was like, well, I'm a chemist. I'll just apply. And, you know, I think the job description was very vague, but at time, I'm like, it's Secret Service. They can't really say what it is because it's a secret, right? I applied, go to the interview, and it's at a non, I kid you not, a nondescript building. There was, you know, like, no, there was an address. But when I walk in, it wasn't like it said secret Service. Right? That's not at all what the building was. Walk in, go in for the interview. And so, you know, they're asking me questions about what I was currently doing at Ditcher. So I'm explaining to my old program management, like, okay. They're like, well, this job is pretty much the same. I was like, same how? Like, what? Program manager? Like, yeah, something like that. I was like, oh, okay. Interesting. No, they were just like, it's something similar. I was like, okay, well, that's. That's fine. It's. It's a secret they can't, they can't say, right? And so I was like, oh, so where, where is the building I'll be working at? So they kind of look at each other, like, not too far from here. I was just like, okay, this is weird, but okay, fine. And so they offered me the job, and I took it just because I was like, wow, this is. [00:39:53] Speaker A: I have to know, right? [00:39:54] Speaker B: Like, it's the secret service. So I go through the whole process, and then I show up at secret service headquarters the first day, because that's, you know, where you show up your first day. I will say there's an amazing museum inside there which is open to the public. Most people don't know this. So the Secret Service actually started to handle, like, counterfeit money. That's really the basis of it. And so the original chemistry side of it was, how can you determine if bills are real or not? So that's really what they were focused on. And then at some point, I don't remember when, that's when it went to the protective service that they added onto it or whatever. So after my first day at the headquarters building, they said, okay, so you're actually going to be in a laboratory not too far from here. I was like, laboratory? Interesting. Okay. So what I ended up actually doing was I started off as the quality manager for the White House male screening facility. So, you know, of course, after, you know, amirithrats, right, the anthrax letters and all that sort of stuff, the government realized we need to have some sort of screening. We can't just have people sending stuff, you know, directly to leaders. It's not going to work. And so really, every, I think just about every agency has their own screening facility. And so that includes the White House as well. So just FYI, if you send something to the president, just know it's likely going to be read and or screened before it actually gets to him. Just as a safe, I would expect. I would expect that you would be surprised. Some people don't know this. Like, people send all kinds of crazy things to leaders and it's ridiculous, but, yeah. So I was the quality manager. I helped get their first ISO accreditation, and then I moved on to being the junior government laboratory manager there. So screening, you know, the mail as well as any gifts that the president receives for kimbio red nuke threats. And so I was able, again, to utilize my background as a chemist, pulled in some biotechniques that I hadn't done since graduate school as well. But, yeah, it was really cool. I probably would say the most interesting part of the job for me was meeting the actual agents themselves, because these are like unbelievable human beings who, without hesitation have said they're going to put their life on the line to protect someone else. And just talking to them about that and about how, you know, a lot of times that affects their personal relationships. You know, like, they can't. They're not able to be in a stable relationship because they're following this other person. So, I mean, it was cool. Had an opportunity to do some training with them, some explosives training. So, yeah, that was pretty cool. But the job itself, I mean, the mission was amazing, right? To know, like, again, it doesn't get more real world than this to be able to, you know, actually intercept, you know, potentially, you know, troublesome items before they actually got to leaders. It was amazing work. But, you know, again, for someone who realized the first week of graduate school that I didn't want to do bench research, there was this tension there that here I am now, back in the laboratory. Yeah. That's really the only reason why I left the job. The people are amazing, the agents, like, they are amazing people, dedicated to the mission. And a lot of fun, too. [00:43:51] Speaker A: I mean, personally, I think you're underselling this. I would have been like, yes, I did save the leader of the free world several times. Oh, yeah. You want to get to the president, you got to go through me. Like, I would sell this much bigger than you are, Kristen. [00:44:05] Speaker B: No, I mean, it was definitely a lot of fun. I was able. Which I thought was crazy. Right? So as a secret Service employment employee, you have to go through a full scale polygraph shrink. But so what, you do that. Yeah, you get. Which was crazy in and of itself. Right? Because, like, they tell you, don't do any background research on, like, the whole poly. But, of course, I was like, what? Now I have to see, what does the Internet say? Right? And they're just like, sit on a penny or something to help. I don't even understand what I was supposed to do. It was supposed to, I think, lower your respiratory rate. I don't understand why or how, but that's supposed to help you, I guess, not panic or whatever. I don't know. [00:44:46] Speaker A: Because don't they base. Don't they base it on, like, your heart rate? Your, like. [00:44:51] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:44:52] Speaker A: That will go up if you're lying. But, I mean, freaking out because you're getting a lie detector test by the Secret Service, then, yeah, everything's gonna sound like a lie. [00:45:01] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. It was absolutely insane. But so, basically, once you do that, then you get a badge. You can go to. I could go to the White House whenever I felt like it, which I thought was crazy. Like, I could just walk in and no one would question because I had the Secret Service badge. So I was able to give tours to my family. You know, the White House Garden tours, was able to do that. The pope came while I was there, so was able to participate in that as well. I got a chance to see the, I guess, all the retired presidential limos. So, yeah, like, again, amazing people. Great time. Thoroughly enjoyed it. [00:45:49] Speaker A: Did you get to meet the president? [00:45:51] Speaker B: I did not. Which is crazy. Yeah. The entire time I was there, I think because, like, our site wasn't anywhere near the White House. Like, we just never. Yeah. Never got a chance. But I didn't get a Christmas card. [00:46:08] Speaker A: Perfect. That's a good. That's something. So I have to ask because, you know, everyone watches, like, the secret service, like, based tv shows, movies. We're gonna go back to, you know, basically our soap operas. And so, for example, actually, when I was in grad school, my friends and I used to play a drinking game whenever we would watch, like, any of the CSI shows. Like, our favorite was CSI Miami, because, like, the science was so bad. The, you know, the lines were so cheesy. And, I mean, I would always tell people, like, no one looks that good working in a laboratory, and no one can take, like, a small sample, like, a fraction of a cell, and then all of a sudden, just magic happens, and there's a picture of your perpetrator, like, on screen, you know, that is not how any of this happens. So I have to ask, what, I guess, is there anything that you see on tv now where you're like, oh, my God, that is so wrong, or is there any show that gets it kind of right? You know, that's kind of what it's like working in the clandestine services. [00:47:15] Speaker B: So what was, like, all the depictions of, like, Langley and all that kind of stuff? There was one show. I can't remember. It was. I do think they actually went to Langley and got a clip because that was accurate. I guess the other thing I'll say is that the. The actual members of the team that are, I guess, you know, not on the books or whatever, like, they do all at least go by single syllable names, right? Because I can remember training, you know, like, we asked the guy, so what's your name? Bill. What? Just Bill. Just what's your name? Bob. Everyone's name. Yep. That is true. [00:48:05] Speaker A: That's so cool. Were there. Were there a lot of other, like, women that you worked with? Because it sounds like mostly guys again, absolutely. [00:48:13] Speaker B: And, I mean, yeah, definitely. Secret Service is very male dominated, especially on the agent side. I'm trying to think. There were two female agents that I did meet. I think they're trying. They're trying to recruit. And then on the science side, not at all. I mean, yeah, you're aware. It's just science in general, especially, I think, getting women to recognize that there are jobs other than just academia. Right. [00:48:48] Speaker A: That's why I have this podcast. I wanted to do this. Essentially, all my guests are women, you know, and I want to talk about the. The things that we think about, you know, when I talk about, you know, traveling all the time, like, how. What do you. Do you have mom guilt when you. When you go away every week and, you know, what is it, like, how do you balance work and life? And I mean, just. And these stories just tend to come out as we talk about, like, our time in grad school and our time in a postdoc, you know, and always seeing all the panels just full of, like, older white men, and you're just like, okay, when's it gonna be our turn? You know? And how do you. I don't know. How do you deal with imposter syndrome? And all these topics, they just. I don't necessarily set out to talk about these things, but they just come up, you know? And how do you balance, especially in a position like you were in, how do you balance being very, like, confident in your job but, you know, likable? I mean, like, these are weird things that, like, women have to think about, you know? So I hear you completely. So I guess so now. And so now you're at. So now you're at Arpa H with me. And again, that stands for advanced research projects agency for healthcare. And we have the same job title, right? We're both Sitas. [00:50:11] Speaker B: Yes. [00:50:13] Speaker A: I thought so. I just wanted to check. So that's a science engineering technical assistant. And essentially. And it's funny because one of the things I have to tell people when they ask me, you know, well, what do you do now? What's your job title? It's not like industry, because in industry, you're constantly chasing, you know, you're an MSL, then you're senior MSl, or you're a medical director. You know, at one time, I was the director of global medical affairs for glaucoma, and my college friends called me the high priestess of glaucoma. Which I did not dissuade. I absolutely love being referred to as the global medical director, but now. Or the high priestess, I'll take that, too. But, you know, but now I'm like, yeah, so I'm technically a science assistant. And they're like, oh, but no, it's totally different. It's like I'm one of two people on this team who are responsible for finding the investigators, finding the research. I'm on Google Scholar constantly looking for new biomarkers or other kols, and where is that person located and where did they go? And let's arrange a call with that person. And is that the technology that we want, or is there anyone that's doing something more closely related? And it's so involved. And when people ask me, how's the new job? Like, oh, my God, it's incredible because it's stuff that I've never been exposed to in my life. And like I said before, these are some of the most intelligent people I have ever met. And so I really wanted to get you on here to talk about how you started doing that just straight out of grad school and how you got set on this path. It's incredible. [00:51:57] Speaker B: That's so cool. Yeah, I still, you know, I think about it now, and it's like, how, how did I, like, I never would have thought when I graduated that I would end up doing this, right? [00:52:10] Speaker A: So then, besides, you know, aside from your route. So in my case, I was recruited by someone who I used to work with at Bausch Alam. He is now a program manager at ARPa H. And so he reached out to me and said, hey, you know, I I'm doing this thing. It's going to be incredible, and I would love your help. And so I said, okay, so that's how I got my job. But I guess, like, and it seems like a lot of the other cdas that I talked to, either they, either they were recruited by, like, a former PI or they had an NIH postdoc and that kind of led to this. Or they've had relatives, again, they've had relatives working at DARPA or some of the other agencies. And so they've kind of known about this career path for a long time. But have you heard of any other ways? Like, how else do people find out about these types of available positions? [00:53:02] Speaker B: Yeah. So I actually found out on LinkedIn, but not because Arpa H had made a LinkedIn post. Someone at the company that I'm working at now made a post saying, hey, I'm hiring for these jobs at ARPA H, and I knew her from my previous days at Dittra. So I do think it is a lot of. Or definitely you have to know someone to even know about ARPA H just because, you know, it is such a new agency, and then, you know, so, yeah, it really is, I think, word of mouth and really networking. Other than that, I do know that, you know, they are doing a lot of, like, road shows, presentations at conferences and stuff. Like, they really are trying to get people to recognize, you know, this is an opportunity to really make a big impact and help, and it's not like other agencies. Right. Because you hear government and people like, oh, bureaucracy, and no one really wants to deal with that. Right. But I think, you know, that's really the message is that's not Arpa. Hi. We're saying, let's put all of that aside and let's really try to tackle the problem in new and creative ways. [00:54:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Taking risks, doing things differently, you know, or high risk, high reward programs versus what, something that the NIH should be willing to fund or, you know, Department of Veterans Affairs, NSF, any of them, you know. So that's. That. That's what I think really attracts me to this agency. And I can only hope that this just continues to flourish, because if we've had something, like, I tell people it's like DARPA for healthcare, and if we've had DARPA for how many decades, you know, creating all these incredible things and why we should definitely let this aspect of doing the same thing for health and for people, it should succeed for even longer, I think, than for defense. That's just my. [00:55:00] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, 20 years from now, we can say we were here at the beginning. [00:55:04] Speaker A: I know, right? Isn't that cool? So then, um, for people who are still in school right now, but maybe are listening to this and thinking, you know, wow, that sounds really cool. But I like to ask people. I like to ask my. My guests, you know, what. What could those trainees be doing now? Like, you know, they're toiling away at the bench, you know, not making any money, dreaming about opening a bakery, no more coffee shop. You know, what. What else could they be doing with their time? Maybe to prepare themselves for a career path like yours. [00:55:36] Speaker B: Yeah. So I would say get involved in something outside of research, whether that's, you know, you're some civic organization or even on campus, you know, the student government associates and that sort of thing. Because I will say the presidential management fellows program is really looking for leaders and leadership qualities. And so if all you have on your cv or your resume is that, you know, it's great, yes, you published in high impact journals, but that's all you did the entire duration of your graduate career, right? So get out there, volunteer, start organizations. Right? Like, if you see a need, create it. So that's really what I would say. Because, you know, I think my, my advisor at the time, I think he even told me, he was like, do you really want to be in graduate school? Because I was just involved in so many other things, you know, that's why I was like, you know, I'm glad someone thinks my career trajectory has been, you know, good, because at the time I was just like, well, I just know I'm interested in doing these things. I don't really know why or how it's all going to come together, but it has, because all those things that I was involved in in graduate school, I genuinely, that is the reason why I was named a fellow is because I had that track record of actually caring about the community and public service, because that is what a job in the federal government is. It is a public service. You are tied to the mission. So whatever you can do now as a graduate student to demonstrate that whatever your passion is, if it's, you know, tutoring, if it's, you know, picking up extra hours as a graduate assistant, whatever that is, you know, let that be reflective, you know, in your, in your cv. [00:57:25] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I think that's good advice, definitely for trainees, but I think for everybody at any level, because, I mean, I've talked to women who have essentially, in many ways, like being a career person and in some cases being a mom and, you know, being a daughter and stuff like these things kind of tend to take up so much of our lives. And if our jobs aren't really fulfilling us, then I've had women say to me, like, I need to maybe find another job. I'm just not super happy. And I've said, well, maybe try volunteering. I mean, there's so many women's organizations, certainly in ophthalmology, we have a bunch, I'm sure women engineers and women in chemistry is probably something like that. I mean, they're all over the, the place, and you can volunteer to plan events or, you know, review grants or abstracts for the next meeting and, you know, things like that. And one of the things that I actually do that I find a ton of fulfillment in is I volunteer for the American association of University Women, AAU W, and they have fellowships for let me see, medical students, MBAs, lawyers, there's a few architects, and there's a few different paths. Like if you need 25k or something like that to help pay for tuition, you know, you can apply for a grant. And they talk about inspiring. Some of these women have been civically minded their entire lives, you know, and even from the time they were in high school, they were, you know, raising money for some pediatric cancer foundation or whatever. And you're like, geez, when I was in high school, I was like, I was hanging out at the mall with my friends being completely useless, you know, so it's just incredible to read some of these stories, but, you know, volunteer experience or experience outside the lab, outside your job, is definitely going to be a huge cv booster. And the other thing I want to say about that is I read a post recently on LinkedIn. The person said, this is kind of how you can show that you're a self starter, you know, and when it comes to interviews and stuff, it's really difficult. And when everyone always says, like, well, you want experience, well, if everyone wants experience, then how do you get your first experience? You know, and this is one way to at least say, look, maybe I don't have the experience doing this particular job, but I've experienced getting people together. I've experienced, you know, setting up a budget and managing a project from start to finish, from stakeholders up until the very last, you know, the very last step. And it's, I think, if anything, it's a good way to market yourself and, and learn these other skills while you're in school. So I think that's a fan. That's a fabulous suggestion. What else have people done that kind of make them stand out to you, either as other potential presidential fellows or as potential co workers, employees of yours? Like, how else can people stand out to you? [01:00:38] Speaker B: So I guess I'll share some advice that my first boss at Ditra gave me, and that is be willing to take the assignments that no one else wants, right? Like, be the first person to volunteer for that. Not only does it show that, you know, you're a team player, that sort of thing, people remember that, too. And it also shows that there's nothing, you know, too small or, you know, too menial that, you know, for you to do. Like, you really are genuinely there to do the work, you know, I think that's. I've carried that with me in every job that I've done is that, you know, pay attention. You know, you're in a meeting and, you know, your boss asks, hey, can someone put together a spreadsheet? Of course. No one really wants to do a spreadsheet. Right. Gauge the room. No one wants to do it. Sure. Yes. Happy to do so, you know, especially if you're, you're just starting. It also kind of builds that rapport with the team. They know, oh, actually, I can. I can trust you to do something larger as well. So, yeah, I think that's something else people could do. [01:01:46] Speaker A: Be, well, that's great advice. [01:01:48] Speaker B: Take the task that no one else wants to do. [01:01:53] Speaker A: Resume wise, cover letter wise, is there anything that people can do to help themselves stand out during the interview process? [01:01:59] Speaker B: Yeah, so, yeah, so, you know, government resumes are, you know, very different, I think, than industry, as I said. Right. Especially if you're going through a USA jobs approach, you really do need to have all of the keywords in your resume. And I just recently saw that they've actually now had to add a disclaimer saying that just, just copying and pasting them into your resume will not check the box. People were just kind of gaming the system, so you actually have to have the experience. So I think paying attention to actually what the job description is asking for and making sure that it is explicit in your cb, how you meet those qualifications, because unfortunately, again, right, the first 1st step is that the computer is reading this and seeing, do you have those words? Does it match that sort of thing interview wise? I think most interviews today, not just the government, across the board, use the star method. Right. Situation, task, action, result. So they're all situational interviews and so you're going to get asked the same questions in whatever interview you have. Give me a time where you faced adversity and overcame it. Right. Don't just start talking. Think through. Describe the situation. What was the task that you were asked to do? What action did you take and what was the result? Frame your responses to every single question using that because I can guarantee you that is how the interviewers are going to be measuring your responses. They're saying, okay, did they use this method? So, yeah, something else to keep in mind. [01:03:53] Speaker A: This is really good, tangible advice. I appreciate that. Is there anything else you want to share with the audience or any other advice or how can people find you if they want to learn more about you? And. [01:04:09] Speaker B: Don'T do it. Don't send coffee beans. Yeah. Just. Just know someone is reading it and you're probably gonna make someone's day be a lot longer than it should be because now they got the. Run these extra tests to prove that it was baby powder and nothing else. But besides that. No, just, you know, I distinctly remember how discouraged I felt in graduate school seeing my other classmates who were super excited about, you know, this potential career in academia. And I was like, I don't want to do that at all. You know, just. And knowing that I had other interests. Just understand that you are not alone. There are hundreds, if not thousands of us out here who felt the exact same way. And we are still out here in the workforce, excited about the work that we're doing utilizing our degree. So, you know, don't give up. Stay motivated. There are other options out there. You shouldn't feel bad for wanting a different career. I think. Cynthia, you and I were talking about this, right? Like, at this point, I, you know, I think, yeah, you'd say it's not really an alternative career since there are so few positions in academia now like this. These are the careers that are out there. This is it. Yeah. So just talk to people. Don't, you know, belittle your experience. You know, you have the experience that's necessary for whatever career that you ultimately want to end up doing. So, yeah, that's my advice. If anyone wants to reach out, I'm on LinkedIn. Kristin Herring. I try to check it at least a couple times a week, but if I don't respond, I'm not ignoring you. I just haven't looked at it. [01:05:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. And I can't tell you how great it's been to talk to you and to get all of this advice. This has been absolutely wonderful. Kristen, thank you for being on the podcast today. I so appreciate it. [01:06:11] Speaker B: Thanks for the invite. [01:06:13] Speaker A: Of course. Thank you. I want to thank doctor Kristen herring again for coming on today's episode and telling us more about her, again, fascinating career path. And I just want to emphasize again, there are opportunities, and you are qualified for all the opportunities. So just go for it. Just apply, be brave, and you never know what could happen. So thank you for listening and see you next time.