[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to today's episode of the Bench to Boardroom podcast. I'm your host, Cynthia Steele, and we have a fantastic episode for you today. I know I say that every week.
Today it's always true. But today is a fantastic episode because today I am interviewing Dr. Diane Bobenkamp, who is the vice President of Scientific Affairs at the Bright Focus Foundation, which funds research in macular, degeneration, Alzheimer's and glaucoma. So that's how I know Diane is from applying for grants from the Bright Focus Foundation and of course, meeting her at other Glaucoma related conferences.
I love Diane's story because like a lot of the other guests that I've interviewed so far, I feel like she has taken her talents and applied them in a very unique way. So after getting her PhD in biochemistry from Queens University in Canada, she did a postdoc at Harvard and then also at Johns Hopkins. I know she's got a heck of a pedigree, but along those same lines, she took her interests in communicating science, and as you'll hear Diane talk about connecting people and volunteered to work at some of the communications offices. At Johns Hopkins, which then led her to her current position, or at least onto the path to her current position as the VP of Scientific Affairs.
Diane is the president of the Camera Club in Baltimore as an avid photographer, and she is all over LinkedIn with the posts that she makes, the different conferences that she attends and the people that she meets. And she's just a wonderful, dynamic personality. So without further ado, my interview with the great connector herself, dr. Diane Bovenkamp.
Dr. Diane Vovenkamp. Welcome to the Bench. The Boardroom podcast.
[00:02:12] Speaker B: Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm so excited to have you here. Yeah, thank you.
[00:02:19] Speaker A: This is going to be so great. And I feel like I've really gotten to know you over the last maybe what year, year and a half. I've known your name for such a long time associated with the Bright Focus Foundation. And as a former Glaucoma researcher, I knew a lot about the foundation. And so I think I saw your name as someone to communicate with about the grants. But I feel like just over this last year and a half, we've seen each other at so many conferences, I've actually gotten to know you. And it's been so much fun.
[00:02:44] Speaker B: I love think I remember at the AOPT meeting you were telling me I had this idea about doing like a webcast. Do you think I should go for still? And I'm going. Yeah. I'm so glad that you ended up doing it.
They've been amazing so far.
[00:03:03] Speaker A: Thank you so much.
[00:03:04] Speaker B: Quite an honor of me to be chosen.
[00:03:08] Speaker A: Please, it's an honor for me to have you. This is going to be so much fun. So you are like a star on social media. It seems like you're everywhere on LinkedIn. You're always posting things, but for people who might be living under a rock who haven't connected with you on LinkedIn yet, please introduce yourself.
[00:03:28] Speaker B: All right. I'm Diane Bovenkamp with a K Dutch origin.
So I'm Vice President, Scientific Affairs. That's basically the chief research officer at Bright Focus. It's a nonprofit that funds glaucoma, Alzheimer's disease and related dementia and macular degeneration.
So I oversee the global operations of all of those programs. And I guess the unofficial that I think I am and that's why, I guess, with the social media, is that I consider myself to be a connector. Right. So I connect scientists with each other that I see in different areas. There's common features of disease amongst all of these, and I bring them together. But we also communicate with affected families, and so I love connecting them to the information to empower them as well.
[00:04:28] Speaker A: Do you have Patient Summits as well as Scientific Summits, where you meet the patient?
[00:04:33] Speaker B: We don't have Patient Summits, but we actually have a 1800 number and an email
[email protected]. Anyone in the world can email. We'll give them info. And if there's we have three PhDs at our organization. Dr. Priti Subramanian, as you know, she's in charge of our vision programs, and Dr. Sharon Rossi is in charge of our and, you know, if there's any stumpers for science questions, then one of the three of us PhDs can answer that question. So it's rather fun because it kind of fits with my philosophy of I've been passionate about science all my life and giving, I think, information is power.
[00:05:15] Speaker A: Absolutely. And I think especially in the age of the Internet, where we can ask Dr. Google anything, it's probably very reassuring for patients and their families to know that there's actual scientists backing up some of the information that they are receiving.
[00:05:30] Speaker B: Yeah, that's vetted, right? Because there's a lot of fake news and fake science and everything out.
[00:05:37] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely.
All right, so you say you've always had an interest in science. So, I mean, tell us where that started from. You grew up in Canada. What was that like?
[00:05:49] Speaker B: I love being in Canada.
My parents I come from, I guess, a non traditional background. So my dad's an organic chemist. My mom is a nurse. Right. So she's in Er neurology and orthopedics. And I ended up being a biochemist, and my brother an engineer. So you can imagine what those daily, nightly dinner table conversations were like.
[00:06:14] Speaker A: Your Thanksgiving dinner sounds a little intimidating.
[00:06:18] Speaker B: Yeah, well, no. When we got together with most of the rest of my family weren't in science, but it was lots of fun. And I still do remember my parents tongue in cheek, saying, I always knew from a young age I wanted to get a PhD. Okay. I think one of your other speakers said they didn't know what a PhD was.
And my parents said, well, you can start dating once you get your PhD.
[00:06:49] Speaker A: So was that one of your first.
[00:06:50] Speaker B: Rebellions has always been in my life.
[00:06:55] Speaker A: Out of curiosity, did you date any PhDs? Was that like, your dating pool?
[00:07:01] Speaker B: The PhD that I dated. I married.
[00:07:04] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:07:05] Speaker B: Okay, so we're a two PhD family. We actually met in the biochemistry program at Queens University. But, yeah, there it is again. I forgot what your original question was.
[00:07:18] Speaker A: No, I'm just thinking box checked. Your parents are like, yes, she has satisfied her requirements.
[00:07:26] Speaker B: And I went into biochemistry, and I didn't actually know that I wanted to go into that, but I knew that I love figuring out how things worked, and I loved medicine, and organic chemistry was my favorite class.
And it's funny, my dad didn't even he has an or he was an organic chemist, but he didn't even teach me anything. So it's funny. I don't know if it's genetic or anything, but yeah. And I stumbled upon biochemistry, and I'm really grateful that I did have that education up.
You know where I went? It's one of the top five universities. We used to say it was Harvard of the north, and I got a really great education there. And so it really helped me in my job now and to switch between different careers, because I went from cancer research, cardiovascular disease research, I learned rare inherited, retinal, degenerative disease, eye disease, and then glaucoma. And now the three diseases now. But there's common features amongst all of them. So it was a great if that's one thing that if people are contemplating going into science, get something that if you don't quite know exactly what you want to do, then get something that might give you the most options of moving on to other science areas in the future.
[00:08:48] Speaker A: Sure. And it's interesting because, for example, someone like me, I essentially started in neuroscience, and I ended in ophthalmology. Like, I made a very short that was a short little jump for me. And I've stayed in glaucoma ever since my PhD, because I'm one of those oddballs that's fascinated by the trabecular meshwork and intraocular pressure and everything. But I'm always amazed by people like you who have made this jump from all these different types and these different systems and different types of disease. And if it's inherited or if it's age related, that's really very impressive to me because you're right, there are some overall processes that are the same, like fibrosis, maybe, or contraction or mutant proteins, cell division. But to be able to jump from one to the other, and especially the way you do now, to understand and comprehend all these different grants and all these different disease systems, that's very impressive.
[00:09:44] Speaker B: Thank you.
I think it's like layers of an onion. You build information upon each other every year, but I think you didn't really make a jump, in my opinion.
It's part of the brain, right? Yeah.
[00:09:59] Speaker A: The eye is an outpocketing of the diencephalon.
My mentor used to say that so I could still hear it in my they the eye is an outpocketing of the diencephalon. So then what was your dissertation in?
[00:10:16] Speaker B: It was so I was in biochemistry, but I was doing my PhD with Peter Greer in the cancer research lab. So it was in the cancer area, but I was the outlier in the lab working with zebrafish. And it was like a mouse model lab, right. Looking at Phips and fez.
Anyway, so I did it on the oh gosh, what was the title? Oh, yes, here it is. F receptor tyrosine kinases nervous system development and angiogenesis cloning and characterization of F receptors from zebrafish and mice.
That was the title of my thesis. And I just found out that if you want, you can get it online because whatever you call it, the National Archives makes a scan of all of the PhDs in Canada so you can get it online as a it's fun.
[00:11:15] Speaker A: Oh, awesome. So you're the only one doing zebrafish. I mean, silly question. Like, do zebrafish get tumors? I mean, what was the connection between mice and zebrafish?
[00:11:28] Speaker B: Well, I think it was like someone on the floor was working with zebrafish. And so I actually started it as my undergraduate thesis project and biochemistry with Peter. And then it was just so successful that he just said, you want to stay and do a PhD on it? And I said yes, because I fell in love with zebrafish. Anybody who the first time you look into a microscope and you see these zebrafish are totally transparent.
That was back so back when you could actually publish papers on cloning genes. Right now it's like you can't because all the genome has been characterized. But yeah, it was a really good solid education because, like, zebrafish, they can make so many more.
They just release the eggs and sperm in a tank. You siphon it up and you can, you know, within 24 hours, you know, you can see these embryos developing and they're transparent for like four or five days.
[00:12:34] Speaker A: That's cool. Really cool.
[00:12:36] Speaker B: You can actually see it's good for neural development and angiogenesis. So it's just really cool.
[00:12:46] Speaker A: In my PhD program, I think it was all mammalian research. I don't think anyone was doing anything outside of that. It was always rats, mice, hamsters, rabbits.
And it's funny because talking to my niece now, she has a friend working on lizards, and there's someone in her lab that's got three different types of snakes that they work on, which sounds like a nightmare to me. I would probably leave that lab immediately.
[00:13:14] Speaker B: Yeah, for me, no thank you.
But actually connecting it with my current job. Zebrafish are kind of like newts that their fins, if they have part of their fins cut off or actually even their optic nerve, it will grow back. So anyone regeneration should think about using zebrafish. That's good to know. If you want to especially look at developmental regeneration and neurobiology.
[00:13:48] Speaker A: Wow, that's a really interesting topic. And I mean, we could easily dive into why that is, but that's beyond the scope of the podcast.
[00:13:59] Speaker B: We can do another hour just on.
[00:14:01] Speaker A: Another hour on zebrafish regeneration.
[00:14:03] Speaker B: Although it's really hard to get grants in zebrafish, which kind of helped to kick start me to go into a research related career.
[00:14:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
Do you see a lot of zebrafish or invertebrate research grants where you're at now? Or is it mostly red?
[00:14:22] Speaker B: We do get some of them, yeah. We funded a number of people with zebrafish. But it's just like any model system, it depends on what you use it for and what question you have to use the strengths of that model system and the genetics to be able to move that forward. I mean, one of the disadvantages is there's tetraploidy duplicate genes in zebrafish. And so it just so happened one of the genes that was focused on didn't have a mammalian homolog. So that kind of was a dead end. Yeah, but I mean, F receptors in general. And then when I went to I continued to work on zebrafish when I went and did my postdoc down at Boston Children's Hospital in Harvard and cloned another few tyrozine kinase receptors and neuropillins also involved in vascular biology and neural development. So that was really cool.
[00:15:21] Speaker A: Yeah. So while you're doing all of this zebra research, I have to ask you the same question I ask everybody. What was your give it all up and runaway job? Fantasy. Fantasy job.
[00:15:36] Speaker B: The other passion. I'm very passionate about science and having other people understand science.
But my other passion that I've had my whole life is also photography. So I always wanted to be like a world famous photographer like Yusuf Karsh or Know. Right now I bring that into my volunteer work. So right now I'm the president of the Baltimore Camera Club and I've held some volunteer positions in that as well. We compete every month.
It's such a thrill to have some of my photos win competitions.
And my passion would be probably to do black and white street photography or documentary photography, focusing on humans or human related things, if that makes sense.
[00:16:32] Speaker A: I love that. Do you have an Instagram page for your photography?
[00:16:37] Speaker B: I do, but I only started to use it.
I can give that Facebook. Facebook and Instagram are what I do for my photography life. And then Twitter and LinkedIn are what I focus on for my science life. But as you mentioned with the social media, that is kind of bringing my two passions together, or three passions. One is science, one is photography and the other is supporting other scientists.
[00:17:16] Speaker A: I remember you trying so hard to get a lightning photo while we were at AOPT and there was a storm approaching while we were on that early morning walk. And just to set the scene, it was beautiful. The sun was just starting to come up, so it was that nice, hazy, cloudy morning, but off in the distance, there's some lightning, and Diane just kept stopping and holding up her phone like, I'm just waiting I never got it because as soon as you put the camera down, the lightning would come and you're yeah.
[00:17:48] Speaker B: Yeah. You have to be patient. Actually, I think photography is just like science. You have to be patient.
[00:17:55] Speaker A: Good. That's a good point. Yeah.
[00:17:57] Speaker B: And plan be at the right place at the right time. Yeah.
[00:18:00] Speaker A: The only other scientist photographer I know is Ted Akott.
Do you know Ted?
Him and his wife.
[00:18:09] Speaker B: So Ted is oh, no, I do know him, but I haven't talked to him about his photography.
[00:18:15] Speaker A: Oh, you should.
Him and his wife Mary go on a lot of different safari trips, or they go to Peru, they go to Costa Rica and South America and different I mean, and they have beautiful photos. And so he's got an Instagram page as well, and just really remarkable stuff when you think about here's somebody who researches intraocular pressure and oh, no, he's got pictures of a pride of just really beautiful birds and stuff. It's remarkable. So, yeah, I'll send you his Instagram page. You would really enjoy it.
So then you went from Queens University to Harvard for your postdoc. And then from Harvard you went on to that a was that a faculty position that you got or what brought you to Hopkins?
[00:19:08] Speaker B: Well, it's interesting. So if the topic about this well, I don't have a very typical career path. It was kind of more like following my interests and opportunities. And the preface for this is I guess I haven't really had a lot of mentorship on my career path. I didn't really think to do loved, you know, working know, Peter Greer for my PhD and, you know, in the vascular biology program when the great Judah Fulkman was alive, just going to those just soaking up all the science. And then I was with Jenny Van Ick actually doing proteomics of cardiovascular disease at Hopkins.
But I went to Hopkins, and I was pretty much kind of working in I made an arrangement with her. I was working in it, like, five days a week. But I also was volunteering at the Johns Hopkins Office of Corporate Communications to build up a portfolio for communications articles, like, writing about publications of Hopkins scientists. And because at the time, when I was in my postdoc in Boston, I thought I really loved what I was doing, and I was good at it, but I didn't feel passionate about it, and I didn't want to focus on one thing.
I was seeing this long stretch of my life focusing on one little part of the scientific universe or multiverse, whatever, and I want to learn about everything about science, and also, as I said, be a connector and be more social. And so I actually researched many different careers. And actually there is a book, I think it's still available. It might be a little outdated, but I think it gives a good smorgasboard.
I think about 25 chapters. It's by Cynthia Robbins roth and it's called Leaving the Ivory Tower.
[00:21:34] Speaker A: I think I've heard of that one.
[00:21:36] Speaker B: Yeah. And it just gave all these really great ideas for alternative careers, like things I hadn't heard of before. It's like? Well, venture capital, angel funders. If they're going to fund in a company or a startup, they need to have a scientific advisor. That's one job you could do.
There were two other career paths that I actually Xed out on because I did a whole and this is an advice for someone if you want, just do a whole bunch of informational interviews and or do a volunteer job. Right? Yeah. And then you'll figure out whether you like doing it and if you'll get paid enough. So I really love museums. I love history.
I love science. I think that would be great. So I volunteered at the Museum of Science in Boston. And then when I went to Baltimore, I was a docent at the Maryland Science Center. And I loved it. I really loved it. But you didn't get paid.
I wanted to actually get paid for my PhD career and I didn't see a lot. So anyway, so that's one thing. If you have a passion about something and you can just have it as a hobby.
So that was fun.
So I xed that out. And then the other one I was thinking of was, I'm going to get to the communication.
The next thing I was thinking of was to be in regulatory fairs.
[00:23:21] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:23:22] Speaker B: Because I just thought that was really cool to try and help scientists patent their ideas and connect them with the Angel Funders or the companies so that we could get these in the hands of someone who'll get it to the affected families.
[00:23:41] Speaker A: Right?
[00:23:45] Speaker B: And so I did a whole bunch of informational interviews and I figured out, you know what, I think if I wanted to not have a ceiling, I would have to get a law degree. And I said, there's no way I'm going to go to school for another four years. So I just said, nah. But my interest in regulatory affairs really helped me out in the job I have now, which part of it is contract negotiations. And so we only just recently, last year got rid of our IP part of our contract. Okay. Because we didn't want to interfere. We found it was interfering in the ability of we got feedback from academic institutions that having this was kind of like putting a lead weight on their ability to negotiate with licensees. Okay. And it was just a lot of time to negotiate it. But anyway, so that's my interest and that helped me out with negotiating. That just because you decide you don't want to go into something, it doesn't mean that it won't help you further on down the line. So I did a lot of education of gave myself an honorary JD, I guess. But to go in the career, I think you would have to have a JD. And I just said, no, I know a number of your speakers. Your interviewee said, well, it would be good to get an MBA and whatever. And for me it was just like, I've been in school for, what is it, 25 or 30 years post high school, it's like, nah, I don't want to go back to school, what can I do with my degree now?
So I went into the Communications and I pretty much found that volunteer position.
That's one thing I would recommend not to do. I did it like pro bono, volunteered for a year, two days a week at the Office of Corporate Communications.
And it was great because it helped me to get my research sorry my communications portfolio going. And I think that I really decided to go into communications because again, I love public speaking and I love writing about science and scientists, but I needed the portfolio. So kudos to Joanna Downer for being the one person of my probably like 1000 cold call emails to get back to me.
[00:26:25] Speaker A: That's how you got that job. You reached out to people and just said, hey, this is something I'm interested in and I'd like to just volunteer my time and help you by because my first thought is, I'm not sure how many mentors would be into. I mean, how did that work out with your time in the lab?
[00:26:44] Speaker B: Yes. So Jenny, Dr. Van Ick was well, she has been very supportive for my whole career.
So I was essentially doing a postdoc position, but Hopkins wouldn't don't allow part time postdocs. So I was called a research technician too. But it's basically I just did research in the lab. Right. And it was great. It was the best time of my life. I was the most productive in papers because I had my own project. But then I said, you know what, I'm going to help everyone in the lab finish off their papers and or people who were from Jenny's who were graduate students who had one last figure to do, but they were writing their thesis. I said, I'll do that for you. And then so I got five or six papers in that one year.
[00:27:43] Speaker A: That's awesome.
[00:27:43] Speaker B: That was great. Yeah. But yeah, if you don't care about titles. She knew I was a postdoc working at a postdoc level. It just didn't say that on. But she was very understanding. It was very tiring year and a half, I guess, of my life. So working seven days, a volunteering. Yeah, volunteering at the Office of Corporate Communications a Thursday and Friday, and then working the other five days in the.
[00:28:20] Speaker A: I when you started this section, I heard you have you've just kind of followed your passions. You haven't had like, a typical career path. And honestly, in a lot of ways, as I'm hearing you talk, I feel like I'm hearing a lot of myself in that, and I'm guessing that a lot of other people hear that too. Because at least in the beginning, when you're a scientist, you plan everything right. You plan your experiments. You plan pretty far in advance. If you're also a parent, you probably know what meals you're going to be having this week because you did the shopping on a certain day. And I definitely grew up with a planner. The story is that my mom actually planned which day she was going to have me by C section because based on my father's work schedule and my sister's schedule, I mean, she knew Friday is going to be the best day.
As an 18 year old, I remember thinking, okay, I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to go to medical school. I'm going to marry this guy that I've been dating in high school, and we're going to live here and we're going to do this. And I had everything else.
[00:29:24] Speaker B: We're going to have the three kids and the 2.4 kids, a dog and a cat.
[00:29:30] Speaker A: And ask me, I live in a totally different part of the country. I'm married to a race car driver, and I have three dogs and two cats. So things totally change.
[00:29:39] Speaker B: But that's so exciting.
[00:29:41] Speaker A: My point is, I go back to what Julie Tetsloff said on episode two, which is life throws you curveballs, and you just have to roll with mean if you think this is the way you're going to go. And then life just throws something in your way, you adapt. It's what we have to do. So I love this idea that you not only adapted, but you did your research and you really spent a lot of time thinking, like, what do I want to do with this knowledge base that I have? Because I know that what I'm experiencing right now, this focusing on one or two proteins or a handful of phosphorylation events, I mean, I know exactly what you mean.
You start a scientific presentation about a disease state, and then it comes down to one or two amino acid residues, like, okay, well, let's keep that 30,000 foot view. So I hear that loud and clear.
But then you did your research, and I love this idea that you did informational interviews. And I think now one of the things I've been trying to emphasize to my listeners is when you go to conferences, find people like you, find people who maybe are doing jobs that you might be interested in doing, because there's nothing wrong with going up to someone at a booth and saying, can you please tell me about your position? Because I think anybody would answer that question and offer some guidance or provide an email or something. I mean, people are much more open, especially when you ask them about themselves, but people are much more open to sharing their career experiences with younger people. And I think that's a fantastic way of learning what options are available to you and what you might be interested in.
[00:31:18] Speaker B: Yes. And I think the other thing to not forget is poster sessions, right?
[00:31:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:24] Speaker B: You can ask people about their science there, but you can also have a side conversation, just saying, hey, I see you're at whatever company.
Tell me what that's like. Exactly.
[00:31:36] Speaker A: Or the other if they don't have.
[00:31:38] Speaker B: Time to talk about it, then you just say, hey, can I meet later, blah, blah, blah, for coffee.
I think you can plan to a certain extent, but I've realized that you just have to embrace the entropy and love the entropy.
I think one of the hardest things for me to do was to learn how to think on my feet, to answer questions, say, in a seminar.
When I moved from Hopkins to Foundation Fighting Blindness, which was my first position at a nonprofit funder, and they fund Macular degeneration, which is an overlap of skill that I had that eventually helped me get to bright focus, but also rare inherited retinal degenerative diseases. But again, it was like a cold call. Applying for position. I'm sitting in the lab, and then Dr. Stephen Rose is the chief research officer at, you know, did you want know try, know, write?
Let's do like, a trial know, let's see what your writing is for. I think it was like four or eight months or something. So that overlapped with when I was in the lab, too.
And this is the other thing.
A lot of times you don't get the position that you apply for, but they kind of make up a position to fit your skill. So I was a hybrid communication, I guess, science program officer, but I was director of science information and programs.
So I would follow and make sure that the scientists were doing all of the research they were supposed to do. But then I'd write it. A lot of it was ghost writing for development to raise funds or putting articles on the website.
I can't even remember the question that you asked.
[00:33:48] Speaker A: First of all, I love embrace the entropy. I think we may have our episode title. That's brilliant.
[00:33:55] Speaker B: There you go.
[00:33:56] Speaker A: That's perfect. I love that.
[00:33:59] Speaker B: I just had, like, entropy of thought right there.
[00:34:02] Speaker A: Yeah, right. I love that. Now, I guess that's my question. So most people, when they think about medical writers or they think about scientific writers, they think about people who write up other people's research for a company.
Certainly I've interviewed at least one, and I know there's a few more that I'm probably going to interview in the future who just love that aspect of writing. Which, by the way, I maintain. Kudos to anyone who loves writing. It's like pulling teeth for me, I can't go much further than an abstract. It's just too much.
[00:34:33] Speaker B: Agreed. I like writing, but I like talking so much.
[00:34:37] Speaker A: Peter me, too.
I like this idea that you went into Foundation Fighting Blindness rather than a company, because, again, most people, when they think about medical writers, they think about writing for a company.
And of course, if you talk to researchers, they think about writing for a company, and they think, well, what's the slant in the research?
What spin is being done for that? So maybe it makes certain people uncomfortable. So when you transitioned to Foundation Fighting Blindness, your initial role was as a writer, and then you moved on to grants or how did that work?
[00:35:16] Speaker B: Yeah, so I was at Foundation Fighting Blindness for about four years, and I love that job.
I would say it was half writing, half I traveled to 37 states in the US because there were about 50 chapters and gave presentations. So at Foundation Fighting Blindness actually had, as you asked me at the beginning, they have events for affected individuals, and there were chapters.
And so we would bring in a local PhD and a local clinician, and then there would be me. So I would do the general overview keynote and then answer questions. And that really brought together a whole bunch of my passions right. About empowering people, getting them to understand science and communicating, getting people connected to connect them with researchers. So that was fun. Yeah.
Also, this is like bench to boardroom. And so in my current position, and in the position at Foundation Fighting Blindness, I would be in all of the science subcommittees board meetings. Right. So, literally, I went from bench to boardroom right. Taking minutes.
And now, as vice president at the lead scientist, I present all the science for the board to approve.
[00:37:03] Speaker A: I'm also thinking about all the connections that you must be able to make to some of these really big names in these fields. I mean, it must be absolutely fascinating to talk to members of these different scientific advisory boards or travel to these different meetings and meet the PiS and their students. I mean, that must be absolutely fascinating to hear it directly from the horse's mouth, so to speak, as you communicate with these people.
[00:37:26] Speaker B: I love meeting people, and I think it's funny because I guess maybe because I was at Queens and then Harvard and Hopkins, and then I've met so many people who have won Nobel Prizes that I'm not really intimidated.
[00:37:47] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:37:49] Speaker B: They put their pants on one leg at a time, just like everyone else. Right. And I just love sitting there having a conversation. It's like, I just go have a coffee and see how they are. And if they're miffed by me just being so calm and casual, then that's on them.
[00:38:07] Speaker A: Diane actually this is great because one of the things that I remember from the very first Arvo I ever went to as a graduate student and, oh, my God, here comes some of these big names and these people whose papers I've read and, oh, my God, they're looking at my data.
How does one kind of calm themselves down? Like you're meeting a Nobel laureate and they maybe put their pants on one leg at a time, but they can also wear their medal while they're putting their pants on, and they can also.
[00:38:39] Speaker B: Cut you down very viciously if they want to. Yes.
[00:38:42] Speaker A: God, that hasn't happened, has it? Has anyone.
[00:38:50] Speaker B: In scientific talks, some people who have their egos in it, they're not asking, really, you a question.
They're actually just trying to show the world that they know something about it as well. And so you just give them an out and say, that's really great and fascinating, but anyways no, of course, like everyone, you're intimidated.
But I think that people are people, and if you kind of put that in your head and just try and focus on who they are and trying to ask them questions and I guess just listen more at the beginning, well, try to listen throughout.
Then you'll find it more rewarding and just kind of get out of your own head. And I think the one thing to remember is you are unique. You are the culmination of your own upbringing, your own cultural knowledge, your scientific knowledge, all of the science knowledge, as well as all of your volunteer positions and interests.
You should have a seat at the table because you have an innovative idea. And just because someone has, like, a Nobel Prize or something to their name, it doesn't mean that their idea is better than yours.
[00:40:27] Speaker A: I'm going to cut that. That's going to go all over LinkedIn, every single connection I make.
Diane, that was beautiful. That was absolutely beautiful. And I mean it, because we all feel like so, first of all, in academia, we're all just part of the team, right? You're a little cog in the wheel and you're just doing your part to advance, and that's how it should be. But I think especially for young people, they are easily intimidated by egos. They're easily intimidated by people who have that kind of air about them. But a lot of these connections can and should be made just by talking to people and reaching out. And it doesn't matter what necessarily their expertise is, because you also have expertise.
I love that because people have said this to me in the past, too. You're the expert in the room. And I always laugh and say, oh, God, no, I don't know anything.
[00:41:28] Speaker B: If you're relying on me, God forbid.
[00:41:35] Speaker A: I say that because you and I both have met the experts. We've been in those rooms with the actual experts. But that doesn't mean that you don't have something else to contribute and that's okay. You still have something to bring to the table. So I think that was absolutely beautiful. We're going to put a bow on that and we're going to cut that. I love it.
[00:41:55] Speaker B: Merry Christmas. Early. Yeah. Merry Christmas.
The other thing, though, to realize is it can be lonely at the top, right? So some of the Nobel Prize winners or whatever the big people put, whoever big people, they would love it to have, they probably love to mentor the next generation. They would love to have a genuine conversation from someone who's passionate about whatever they're passionate about.
And just because maybe someone looks surly, maybe they just have like resting bitch face or something like that. Do you know what mean? Like, I have that. That's why I smile a lot, because when I'm just neutral and I'm happy, it's know my face. Whatever. Anyway.
[00:42:50] Speaker A: Thought that about you, Diane. But okay.
[00:42:54] Speaker B: Anyways, I think anyone looks that way.
[00:42:56] Speaker A: In their passport photo, though. I mean, we all just look very sturdy in our passport photos, don't we? Because they just watch.
[00:43:01] Speaker B: You just remember that if you just look at it as everybody is interested in talking to you, if you're interested in them too. And it's not like a one way, it's a give and take. And they can learn something from you and you can learn something from them, and if they reject you, then it's on them. So it's the saying that I always say that somehow I've learned ever since I came to the US. It's like you can't get it if you don't.
[00:43:34] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Going to pause for just 1 second now.
I think this is a great conversation to have because I'm curious now you're talking about your experiences, but what do you see? You meet a lot of young people and a lot of young researchers and so what do you see as, I don't know, maybe like some of the threads that combine them?
What are they concerned about in terms of their futures, if they want to go into industry?
Do you see a common thread there?
How do you mentor some of these young people that you meet through the grant funding?
[00:44:18] Speaker B: Well, the interesting thing is, I think that going into a lab and industry isn't an alternative or whatever career anymore. I mean, even Bright Focus Grants, you can apply for a postdoctoral fellowship or the Standard Award or whatever from a for profit organization as well as from a government agency or an academic institution to us. I mean, I think that a lot of other funding agencies are accepting that and there are plenty of examples of people who go back and forth between academia and for profit.
So I don't think that going to do research in industry is as radical as it used to be.
[00:45:07] Speaker A: That's good.
[00:45:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
That said, I think that there's different expectations and different skills. I mean, the cool thing is you don't have to write grants, but you can write a grant. Say you're doing a postdoc at an industry, but you have to work on X project for whatever you're assigned, and you have to be ready for that project to maybe die, and you be given a new one. But you could also apply for postdoctoral fellowship, say, from Bright Focus, and ask the organization if you can work on your pet project in your spare time. Do you know what I mean? And that could be something that could either benefit the company because it's your innovation and or maybe you could take it back to industry or to government or to another sorry, to academia or government or whatever.
What are a lot of common questions that people have? I think actually the ability to get funds is getting so difficult in the US. And other countries that I think that that's part of the deciding factor.
And organizations like Bright Focus are trying to help with that, but there's only so much money to go around, too. And I think I'd like to recall there were studies that were done by Nah, right. I know. There was one in 2005, and then they did an update ten years later, so maybe 2015 ish and they said that only 6% of PhDs actually go on to get an assistant professorship. Okay, so 94% of us go on to not do an assistant professorship at an academic institution. Like, that is something you need to keep in your mind and maybe have a plan right.
[00:47:15] Speaker A: Anymore. 94% of us are doing something else. It's not the alternative.
[00:47:19] Speaker B: It is not.
That's why I call it a research related career, but also the age you get your first independent Ro one is 45.
Oh, wow. Yes. And that was like, whatever, like, eight years ago, so I don't even know what it is now. So if you're passionate about it, if you're passionate and I see scientists at academic institutions as entrepreneurs, you are the CEO of your own startup, which is your lab, right? And you are trying to do write for grants, which is kind of like business plan and making collaborations to try and support your lab. Right? And so I think the best advice is to try and get great mentors that can help you not only with the science that you're doing, but kind of help you navigate along the career path and then choose wisely what kind of environment you want. Like, just think deep down in your gut and trust your gut. That's one thing I didn't do at the beginning. I didn't trust my gut. And normally my gut is right. And get to know what your strengths are, right? So if you really love teaching, then you might want to go into a mainly undergraduate academic institution where you can well, the cool thing about that, a lot of times 75% or 100% of your salary is paid for because you're teaching in the year, and then you can do the research in the summer or whatever you want to.
Yeah, but if you want the high powered Harvard and Hopkins, you can do that too.
You just have to be ready for whatever hoops you have to jump through.
[00:49:16] Speaker A: Yeah, right.
I love that idea. I want to go back to this idea that you are the CEO of your own little company and that is your lab. And I love that idea because I've had people ask me what types of experiences they should put on their resume as they're busy converting their CV to a resume. And there's plenty of videos out there on how you could do that online. But I think thinking of it that way is perfect because if any student thinks about it, they have plenty of communication experience, they have plenty of writing experience. They've led teams, maybe not in a formalized setting, but they've probably been a ta. They've probably done labs with undergraduates or with graduate students. They've managed budgets because they had their own small grant and they've had to manage their spend.
[00:50:07] Speaker B: Probably done work by leading funders around the lab.
[00:50:11] Speaker A: Yes, exactly.
I love that idea because one of the questions that I think about a lot is if you're an industry curious trainee, how do you optimize your time? And maybe just switching the mindset puts everything in a slightly different context. And so I like this idea that you could think about your own career, at least the thing that you're working on right now. If you think of it as a company, then I think maybe you can start to maybe what's the word I'm trying to say?
It just becomes a little bit more approachable, perhaps, or you could see the parallels between academics and industry and how you can use your skill sets.
[00:50:52] Speaker B: Well, and I think that when I was at Harvard and Hopkins, they actually have I can't remember exactly what they're called, but I went to some of them because I was thinking about going into industry at one point, too. And it's like entrepreneurial clubs where you can actually go and learn from CEOs, like learn how to write a business plan, learn how to write a lab, how to run a lab. I mean, you could join that and at the very least, that's where you can meet like minded people and do informational interviews.
But you can learn a lot from that, even if you decide to stay in academia, because you really should think of yourself as an entrepreneur. And I know that's kind of the love, right, that other than maybe, I guess, the department head or the dean or something, you're pretty much your own boss. So it's like you're starting your own business.
[00:52:00] Speaker A: I love that. So let's talk about online brand building a little bit because again, we go back to your love of photography and your love of connecting people and making connections. And so, again, I really got to see that in you. When we were in Indianapolis at the AOPT meeting, because for those who weren't there, we had an app for the meeting, and it was pretty small. You can pretty much start to recognize everybody by the last day of the meeting, and we were given the opportunity to take photos and post them and send them to each other and everything. And you were easily diane the most prolific photographer that we had. She took pictures of everyone giving their talks and the awards ceremonies and these walks that we did in the morning just for it. I feel like a lot of ways that people make connections now, obviously, is through social media. And so if you're on LinkedIn or you're on Facebook or Instagram, and you're trying to show people, show prospective employers who you are and what you're about, do you have any ideas on online brand building or how do you show people who you are through social media?
[00:53:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I think I really did get carried away there. Sometimes. I'm a little obsessive. I wanted to actually I loved it. Well, I have to say, in my own postdoc, I wasn't allowed to go to any scientific conferences because they didn't allow anyone to go unless you had a paper that was ready to be published. So in the three years I was there, I only had one paper, and I think that it's vital to go to conferences.
I know that there's a lot of people, especially early career scientists, that they go and give their talk, and then they say, oh, I don't have a picture of myself doing that. So it was almost like my gift to everybody to have a picture of everyone doing that, and also to tell others how awesome they were, how awesome that presentation was. There's at least one to three to ten things that I learned from each presentation. It just blows my mind, and that whatever blow mind, emoji, app sometimes, that's what I'm like at every meeting. So to build a social media brand?
Yeah. So I think that always being positive and supportive, I think that's really important. Both of yourself. Don't be down on yourself as well as others.
But I think that for scientists, it's a good way. Social media is a great way. If social media would have been big when I was doing my postdoc in I won't even say, okay, yeah, it was 2001 to 2004. Okay.
I don't think LinkedIn and Twitter, whatever, X, whatever, it wasn't around then. Social media wasn't big. And so if you didn't go to a meeting, it's kind of like if a tree falls in a forest, right?
No one is there to see it. Does anyone care? And I think that that's the reason why with Bright Focus, we fund a lot of travel fellowships to go to conferences and I love taking pictures.
If you want to build your brand, science needs to be built upon by everybody else, right? And so you need to share your ideas, right? Like, of course, protect yourself if you want to patent it, whatever. But your ideas are important, and no one can build upon them unless you share them. And so I think don't be afraid of sharing your ideas and not just your own research, but others. And you just say, wow, I never thought about that before. One of the posts I did recently was something I think it was from the Parkinson's field, where they actually are using the eye to diagnose Parkinson's, just like in Alzheimer's, that we funded some people, and I'm saying, wow, we can learn a lot from this. You used AI to analyze this and that. So I think that just showing that, getting your ideas out there and making science real, right.
It sounds weird, but scientists are people, too. We're not just the lab coat, pocket protector, black glasses with, whatever, the tape.
[00:56:44] Speaker A: Yes.
You'd actually be surprised at the number of people who have said to me in the past, I'm surprised you have a PhD, you have social skills, and I'm actually kind of amazed that the Sheldon Cooper Trope is still amy Farrafauder Trope is still alive and well. But this is really interesting, though, because I feel like some of the things that we've talked about here all come down to thinking of the people who inspire you, maybe taking them off the pedestal that you have put them on, but on top of that, maybe putting yourself up on a little bit of a pedestal. So it's okay to have a bit of an ego about what you do. It's okay to ask for someone to take a picture of you while you're giving your talk and maybe take a few, because maybe you're making a weird face in one or two. And I say that as someone who takes horrible candid photos. I'm always making very OD facial expressions, but it's okay to ask for that, and it's okay to toot your own horn and post something that you discovered on social media, because that's all going to be part of brand building. And then if you can maybe decrease the slope that you've put between yourself and the people that you admire, and you put yourself on a little bit more of an even playing field, that's going to give you more encouragement and excitement, and you're going to be able to make more connections that way rather than feeling like you're so small. And these other people are the proverbial giants.
[00:58:13] Speaker B: And don't be afraid to show your Hobies, too. I think it's so cool. I see some scientists out there that they would work neurons as coasters or they'll knit neurons or knit eyeballs or something, and it's great.
[00:58:34] Speaker A: I love that. And that's really good, too, because, again, I go back to my conversation that I had with Julie Tetslaff. She said if you research the people that you're interviewing with, then you find out what they're interested in. You find out maybe where they're from or if they're big fans of mountain climbing or fishing or scuba diving or whatever it might be. And if you're sharing that, then that gives you something to connect with the first time you meet. And then if something comes from that, maybe not right away, but it's never a bad idea to lay some of those foundations early and just see where they go.
[00:59:10] Speaker B: Well, and don't forget, when you're writing, you're I don't know if you put it in your official NIH style CV, but you can put it in your LinkedIn, which is pretty much my virtual CV, and I let everyone in the world see it because you never know.
But don't forget your volunteer position. So there's a lot of skills that you can show that you've cut your teeth in your volunteer job and you might be ready to take it to the next level. So president of the Baltimore Camera Club, I have to run monthly board meetings, right. Things like that, and make decisions on this and that. Right. So that's something that if someone had a similar type position, or if you go to an African country one week a year to try and help with eye care or something that's amazing.
And also volunteering at the local giving a presentation in your kids class about eyeballs, or that should count as community service.
Or volunteering at Science Museum. Don't forget to I think that's good.
[01:00:42] Speaker A: Advice for everybody, though, because I recently had a conversation with a friend who maybe is feeling a little bit stuck. And I mentioned, well, find women's organizations in engineering or find other groups of people that you can mesh with either from a scientific perspective or from maybe a completely different perspective. Because I feel like as we get older, we get a little pigeonholed, necessarily, or maybe just stuck in our rut, for example. We work, we parent, we take care of ourselves if there's still time. But branching out, I think it was Jacqueline Deval who know you don't necessarily have to work in something that lights you on what that's what hobbies are for. That's what family is for, travel and all these other things. And so if you also make sure that you make time for that, not only are you going to be more fulfilled, but it could actually help you make other connections in other parts of your life.
[01:01:40] Speaker B: Yes, and definitely I think my love of photography helped with the social media, and Bright Focus is benefiting from that too, right?
Yeah, I think that's definitely something to keep in mind.
[01:01:58] Speaker A: I guess my last two things. One is, do you currently interview people for positions? Or in the past, have you? Because I'm curious, what would you look for in applicants. What would set an applicant apart for you in terms of a position?
[01:02:12] Speaker B: Yeah. So I've hired a number of people in my department and build my department up. It was just me at one point and I was the sole PhD overseeing all three programs, which meant I slept 3 hours a night, pretty much and then convinced to bring in Preeti and Sharon. Right. But there were other people in their positions as out and I've created new positions as well. I have Adrian Mcereg who is the data management associate and looking after the that's another thing like the grants management, you can do that if you don't want to finish a PhD or do a postdoc.
You can totally go, especially if you're a US citizen. Definitely. You could go to look on US jobs and go to NIH and be a program officer.
But I think data analysis and for a funding agency like ours, being able to we have proposal central, all those applications come in and then you have the reviews that go out and there's this big cycle that's a really cool career as well.
What I look for and each of those jobs is different based on the skills. What I look for in the person is the ability to and I know this sounds trope, but work in a.
[01:03:52] Speaker A: Team.
[01:03:55] Speaker B: Be open minded, to be able to listen, to contribute together and not be afraid to challenge me too. There's a lot of times I have great ideas, but not all the time. And so I love it when the experts on my team tell me maybe this could be an alternative. Or tell them you don't have to be so nice about it. You just say wow, what about this?
And I think that's really important when I'm looking to not have an ego too, because to be able to change on the fly or adapt like every year we adapt our grant system.
The other thing is to be able to you don't have to be an extrovert, you can be an introvert, it doesn't matter.
Just need to be able to talk with people one on one and be able to deliver bad news.
Like you didn't get the grant right. And a lot of times what would I call it? Kind of like a hostage negotiator. You need to have those skills because I've had many times where people who didn't get the grant and they're very angry at me. They'll see me at a meeting and they'll scream in my face and square at me or on the phone, oh my gosh, do you know who I am? Why did you not give me the funds? And stuff like that. And you just have to say because you just have to understand maybe that was their last chance to get a grant or maybe they're just in whatever mood and you just have to say, well, it was because sorry that you're feeling that way. But you know what? Don't give up. Here, let me help you. A lot of times these days funding is short and it's like you had an innovation here, but there's this and this and this, and I can give you extra ideas.
So most of the time I pride myself on it. And then I think I look for that ability in someone to be able to like a hostage negotiator. Take someone who's angry at the beginning and then at the end they're purring like a little kitten and say, thank you so much for that information.
Not exactly like that, but it's like talk people down, someone something and respect people. Right?
[01:06:32] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
I love that.
[01:06:36] Speaker B: You're probably going to hear someone saying, you need a hostage negotiator.
[01:06:40] Speaker A: That's true. That's probably true.
I like that idea though, of being able to communicate bad news because I've talked about this in the podcast before, the ability to have these soft skills. As scientists, we value Brevity, and particularly in emails or over text, if facial expressions are not involved, brevity can come across as being very rude. And there's been many emails that I have received in all my time in academics. So I'm thinking, jeez, what did I do wrong? Well, nothing. This person just had their mind on six different things. But being able to maximize your ability to have different types of conversations, difficult conversations, easy conversations, write a good email like you said, maybe try your hand at hostage negotiation.
[01:07:34] Speaker B: Actually, writing a good email is still elusive to me because sometimes when I try and take all the emotion out of it, it seems hostile. So when I put in too much emotion, it seems hostile. I don't know, you just kind of have to try and use emojis or something. I agree.
[01:07:57] Speaker A: Well, also, it's funny, there was actually something that I saw on Instagram recently about the number of exclamation points that are in a text or in an email because if every sentence ends in an exclamation point, you feel like they're yelling at you. But if none of them end in exclamation points, then it's totally apathetic. So there's got to be it's a very fine balance. And then, yeah, if you throw in emojis, that takes care of all of it. But you don't want to come off as crazy, but you don't want to come off as totally disinterested either. So it's an elusive topic for me as well.
[01:08:31] Speaker B: I find myself for another conversation.
[01:08:34] Speaker A: Exactly. So if listeners are interested in learning more about Bright Focus or if they're interested in applying for a grant or what types of things that you fund, what do you want to tell everybody about Bright Focus?
[01:08:48] Speaker B: Well, okay, so we're going to be changing our website within the next six months or so. But right now, if you can see the kind of things that we fund, if you go to Science Brightfocus.org, and it's. Applygrant. Just click on the Apply for a Grant big button.
Then you'll be able to see our three programs.
All of them have postdoctoral fellowships, and there's eligibility. Don't forget to look at the FAQs.
But we'll accept applications.
It's investigator initiated, so we don't put out direct calls.
And we kind of consider ourselves to be like Angel Funders. Right?
We're funding you as a CEO. We're giving you seed funding for your IPO, which is your idea, an innovative idea that maybe you don't have enough preliminary data to apply for an Ro one, but that's what we're here to help you for. Our two or three year grant will help you then develop that crazy little idea. It's not incremental that's it we try for it to be it has to be something new. And and then we love to see people get follow on funding, mainly from NIH or sometimes industry. So that's another thing, a source of funding. So we did this survey a while back, but people go on to get ten times the funding that we give them. So our little $200,000 grant will help you get 2 million with the preliminary data that you get.
[01:10:38] Speaker A: That's a really good ROI. Yeah.
[01:10:40] Speaker B: And so that's for grants. And we also have fast tracks. These are like, basically information boot camps, right?
[01:10:48] Speaker A: They're wonderful. I went to the Glaucoma one. It was phenomenal.
[01:10:51] Speaker B: Yes. And that's going to be happening, I think, in fall 2025. So look out for that for the Glaucoma fast track. And the other thing is the common features of neurodegenerative disease. So that's one that I've helped to organize and pull together a committee. And that happens before ADPD, alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease. But we bring in people from vision and Alzheimer's to talk about the common features. And this year, it's all about making order of the chaos, using big data for understanding disease biomarkers and diagnostics in clinical trials. So that should be fun. Come and join us. That's awesome.
[01:11:38] Speaker A: That sounds fascinating. Really does.
[01:11:41] Speaker B: Yeah. And then don't forget to apply for travel fellowships. We fund a whole bunch. Like we funded travel fellowships to AOPT and Arvo and the Iser Biennial. And now the bright focus Glaucoma. So many, many different awesome meetings.
[01:12:00] Speaker A: That's at Brightfocus.org.
[01:12:02] Speaker B: Yes, brightfocus.org. Yep.
[01:12:05] Speaker A: Awesome.
Dr. Diane Bovenkamp, I cannot thank you enough. This was so much fun, and you had so much great information to give, and I think this is going to be incredibly helpful. Thank you so much for your time.
[01:12:16] Speaker B: Oh, thank you. And if I could just close with some thoughts for people going forward. I just mean, like, don't give up.
Resilience and grit are your friends, right? Trust your gut.
Get a seat at the table. What is it they say? If you're not at the table, you're on the menu?
[01:12:44] Speaker A: Yes.
[01:12:45] Speaker B: Always speak up. Even if someone tells you that it's not professional to speak up, you can always speak up. And it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission. But that said, you don't need to go it alone either. So I know I've been in my career, I've been a pull myself up by my bootstraps kind of apply for 1000 jobs and find the needle in the haystack. But you don't need to do it that way.
You can get a shortcut and try and put together a panel of mentors.
[01:13:20] Speaker A: Agree.
[01:13:20] Speaker B: But anyways, that was just I'm so grateful that you invited me to be on this podcast and I really hope that anybody watching, like, please talk with Cynthia, talk with me. Don't be afraid to just move forward and follow your passion.
[01:13:48] Speaker A: I have to second that. I have absolutely no problem with anyone ever asking me questions or reaching out. I have been sick lately, so I know I have a couple of messages waiting for me in LinkedIn and I'm not ignoring anybody, but no one I've ever spoken to has said no. I don't want trainees or anyone to reach out to me to ask me about my career. Everyone's open to it and we are. And I would guess almost everybody is. And if the worst thing that happens is they just don't respond to your email, that's fine.
[01:14:16] Speaker B: Yes. The worst they can say is no.
Exactly. There's nothing wrong with you as happens these yes.
[01:14:26] Speaker A: Yes. Exactly.
This was amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much, Diane, for your time today.
[01:14:32] Speaker B: Great. Bye.
[01:14:34] Speaker A: Thank you so much to Dr. Diane Bovenkamp for joining me today. Again, the Bright Focus foundation can be
[email protected]. And the book that she recommended was Leaving the Ivory Tower by Cynthia Robbins Roth. So thank you very much for joining us and see you next time.
