Developing Trust As A Brand - Dr. Deva Boone

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello, and welcome back to the Bench to Boardroom podcast. I am your host, Cynthia Steele, and today's guest is Doctor Diva Boone, who is the owner of the Southwest Parathyroid Center. Diva is a medical doctor with a subspecialty or sub sub specialty in the parathyroid, and she and I met at the University of South Florida as students in the executive MBA program. I think we met on the first day of class because I was shocked that there was anybody who specialized not just in the thyroid, but in the parathyroid. So Diva and I have a wonderful conversation about having very niche subspecialties. We talk about the benefits of getting an MBA and why getting those types of outside perspectives can actually make you a better business person and a better surgeon. And we also talk a lot about the importance of meeting people where they're at, and that includes utilizing your emotional intelligence to connect. Connect with people as much as you can. So without further ado, my interview with Doctor Diva Boone. Doctor Diva Boone, welcome to the bench to boardroom podcast. [00:01:34] Speaker B: Thank you. I'm happy to be here. [00:01:36] Speaker A: I am so excited to have you. We haven't actually had a chance to see each other in a long time, so it's good to see your face. [00:01:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Good to see you as well. How's it going over there on the east coast? [00:01:50] Speaker A: Um, it's getting hot. It's getting hot here in Florida, but you're in Phoenix, so I can't really complain. [00:01:55] Speaker B: It's even hotter. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:01:58] Speaker A: Well, you know, it's an election year. Everything's always more interesting in an election year. [00:02:05] Speaker B: Yes. [00:02:07] Speaker A: Why don't. Why don't you. Why don't you introduce yourself to the audience? [00:02:11] Speaker B: Sure. So I am Doctor diva Boone. I am a parathyroid surgeon. So a. I'm a very specialized or subspecialized surgeon. And working in Phoenix, Arizona. Now. I have my own practice, and I've been out of medical school, I don't know, a long time. Medical school. Jesus. I graduated from medical school a long time ago, 2006. So I've been out a while and did general surgery, residency, did endocrine surgery, fellowship, and then since then, for the last ten years, I've been doing just this very specialized surgery. [00:02:52] Speaker A: That was the thing that actually got me to talk to you for the first time. So as we'll get into. We met at University of South Florida in the executive MBA program and hearing that you were a parathyroid surgeon. So as someone who studied anatomy and in graduate school, I just. All I remember about the parathyroid is in the anatomy coloring book. There was just these four little nodules, and for some reason, it always seemed like in every anatomy book I saw, the thyroid was blue and the parathyroid was pink. And you could barely. I don't know why, but you can. You can barely see the difference on histology, you know? And that was always a good question on the histology exam, which was the thyroid, which was the parathyroid. I am blown away that there's people like you who just specialize only in that. That's so cool. [00:03:40] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, there aren't that many that just specialize in parathyroid. And actually, most people probably haven't even heard of parathyroids if they didn't take anatomy. So most of my patients don't even know they have parathyroids until there's a problem with them, because the thyroid gets all. The thyroid is like the cute sibling that gets all the attention, and the parathyroid, it's like the one shoved under the stairs. It's kind of. It just doesn't get the attention that it deserves. But, yeah, the thyroid actually is more of a pink color, and the parathyroids are kind of more orange in color, but they are tiny. They're like, size of a grain of rice, and they're usually sitting around the thyroid, which is why they're called parathyroids. [00:04:25] Speaker A: I feel like a lot of my listeners who are pursuing a PhD or even in medical school, we get kind of. We find ourselves in these rabbit holes, especially PhD students, because you're interested in a disease state, and then you become interested maybe in a particular cell, and then within that cell, there's a problem with that protein, and within that protein, there's a. You know, and so, um, I always. I always would laugh when I go to these research seminars, and they would start by saying, you know, we're talking about spinocerebellar ataxia, and then it's like one subunit of one calcium channel inside one subtype of neuron, and it was like, wait, hold on. Let's. Let's take a step back. And so, like, your experience, getting so excited, first with endocrinology, then specifically whittling down to the parathyroid is something that everybody can really appreciate. We all start nerding out about our favorite cells. [00:05:19] Speaker B: Yeah, it's true. I mean, I can spend hours and hours talking about the parathyroids, for your sake, I won't. But it is my thing. I am really into it. It's tricky if you're talking about a career path, choosing something that is so, so subspecialized has its drawbacks as well as its benefits. So the benefit is that I can be one of just a few people in the US who do justice operations. So I get people traveling from all over the world to have surgery with me. The downside is that I really don't have many career options other than that. And it's very, very hard to kind of get yourself out of that, that niche once you have established yourself. So there's positives and negatives to that hyper specialization. [00:06:10] Speaker A: That's true. I spent most of my career in glaucoma and graduate. Glaucoma is an enormous disease and it's very common. But I have found myself wondering periodically should I branch out within pharmaceutical companies or surgical, so that if I do specialize again in dry eye or in macular degeneration, you know, that actually builds out my portfolio and makes me a little bit more attractive, I guess, to potential recruiter. And so, yeah, I kind of face something similar, except I didn't. This is just my work experience. [00:06:47] Speaker B: Right. I mean, it'd be very hard for me to get a job as a surgeon. So I mean, that's partly why I started my own company. I mean, I love, I love being on my own, but it'd be pretty hard to get a job because I don't really do general surgery. I did training in it, but I haven't seen an appendix in a decade and so I wouldn't really know what to do if it slapped me in the face. I, you know, so, yeah, so that's a problem. But currently I'm happy with the situation. But it does, it does limit you. [00:07:15] Speaker A: Sure, sure. Were you always interested in medicine? [00:07:19] Speaker B: No. [00:07:20] Speaker A: No. What did you want to do? [00:07:22] Speaker B: No, no. So when I was a kid I wanted to be a writer. Still may do that. I still dream of writing books, but no, I think I was interested in medicine. Probably the very, very common story is you had some early experience with medicine. My mother was very sick when I was almost nine, and throughout my teenage years she was very ill with lupus. Then I watched somebody die of AIDS when I was 13. So it's kind of a lot of hospitals and medicine and then mix that with sort of the idealism of a college student where I thought I was going to change the world and I saw all these problems with medicine that I could solve and I was so idealistic back then. It was so cute. But then I grew up, but yeah, I wanted to change things and I thought I could make this huge difference in medicine, and so that's. That's why I went into medicine, but I didn't really make the decision until junior year of college. Yeah. And then I wanted to be a neurologist because I thought that was cool. I did, too. Yeah. And then I did my neurology rotation. I was like, absolutely not. Because really, you know, you got to see the day to days. You have to. One career. One piece of career advice we always give to doctors is that, you know, you have to. You can't look at the most interesting aspects of that career. You have to look at the day to day boring crap that that person has to do. And if you could do the everyday boring crap, then that career is right for you. But if you couldn't and you only really liked the cool stuff. Because I really liked. Oh, you know, like, strokes and, like, you know, looking at, like, Alzheimer's, all this really cool stuff. [00:09:07] Speaker A: Right. [00:09:08] Speaker B: And then you realize that day to day neurology is actually back pain and headaches. And. And so if you don't want to deal with back pain and headaches all day, then you don't go into neurology. [00:09:19] Speaker A: That makes sense. [00:09:20] Speaker B: Yes, yes. But I could. I could do small operations every day. I love it. I love operating. And so that's how I became a surgeon, was, because my surgery residency, my surgery rotation in medical school was the only one I really, really loved. I could see myself doing the crap every day. [00:09:38] Speaker A: Okay. That's really fantastic career advice, though. You know, anybody who's thinking, you know, they're. They're finishing up their PhD program. They're finishing up residency, you know, their postdoc, whatever it is, and they're thinking about a particular direction. Yeah. Think about if you could do the most boring aspects. [00:09:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:57] Speaker A: Of that job, then. [00:09:58] Speaker B: Right. [00:09:58] Speaker A: This is the career for you. I love that. [00:10:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Because it really is true. Like, I really could do tiny little skin biopsies every day and enjoy it because I like those proceeds. I like procedures, you know? Yeah. And I like getting that stuff done. So I really could do the most boring aspects. But. But talking to people all day, and I've talked to other doctors because I'm like, how do you do it? How do you, like, just sit and talk with people all day? Like, how do you manage it sounds so exhausting. And they actually enjoy it. Like, they're actually like, no, I enjoy seeing my regular patients as a private, you know, family practice guy, was like, I love seeing these people through the years, and I'm thinking, I would. I would really hate my life to do that. But. But they do, because that's their. That's their bread and butter. That's what they like. And I think it is good career advice for anybody. Like, look at the actual crap that that person has to deal with on a day to day basis. If that is not going to be your life, then don't do it. [00:10:57] Speaker A: Yeah. And we always lead with the more exciting parts. Right? Like, perfect example, you know, medical science liaisons. Everyone's like, oh, I love to travel. Yes, the travel is cool. And getting credit card points and staying at hotels, whatever, that's cool. My Alaska Airlines miles helped me pay for my honeymoon, which was great, but there are some very nice perks to that job. But what they don't tell you about is going to conferences and, granted, really beautiful locations, but you are in ballrooms. You are in your hotel room for just. Just to sleep, and then you're up and out the next day. Late nights, early mornings. You are talking to people all the time. It is exhausting. You know, if there's stuff that maybe you don't necessarily agree with, but you have to say, because that's what the company wants you to say. I mean, there's. There's so much about it, but everyone only hears about, oh, you get to travel and you get the rewards points, and, you know, you talk to people, and it's so great, you know, but I I always appreciate talking to trainees who are like, that sounds like my nightmare. What's another option? You know, then we talk about science writing. We talk about, you know, bench research and things that maybe you don't necessarily have to be so front facing or outward facing. [00:12:15] Speaker B: I mean, and I've so dealt with a few MSLs or medical science liaisons in some companies that I've just worked with peripherally. And, I mean, there's a lot of acting to that job. Like, they. They have to act constantly. They have to act excited. They have to act like they really enjoy you. Like, they really care what you have to say. I mean, it's kind of like an acting job. Really? Yeah. Like, a lot of it. [00:12:42] Speaker A: I just say, I don't know what. [00:12:43] Speaker B: They say about me behind my back, but. But I could tell that, you know, there's a lot of acting in it. This is performative, basically. Yeah. [00:12:51] Speaker A: You always have to act excited about the messaging, which I was lucky enough to get a job at Bao Shalom about a drug that worked on my particular favorite cell type. So, like, my excitement was genuine. [00:13:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:13:04] Speaker A: But I think a lot of people could see the difference between, you know, you have to go in and talk about another plus one drug, you know, oh, we do the same thing, but better. No, we do the same thing, but better. You know, and that's where the performance definitely has to come in. And so if that's just something you're not into, then that's definitely not. There are some good perks, but that's definitely not going to be the job for you. [00:13:26] Speaker B: Right. [00:13:27] Speaker A: So then I guess let's talk about the parathyroid. So, for people in my audience who maybe remember coloring it on a coloring book, but that's about it. What, like, what is parathyroid disease? And why should we be. Why should we think about the parathyroid? [00:13:43] Speaker B: So I'll just give you a brief overview, because I don't, I imagine your licious might not be that interested in it, but basically, the parathyroids are tiny glands on your neck. They were actually discovered in the indian rhinoceros, which is why some of the gifts people give me are rhinoceros, but it was discovered in the indian rhino. And, you know, it was located next to the parathyroid gland. They had no idea what it did. And so it was called the para, next to thyroid. So it doesn't have anything to do with the thyroid, which confuses a lot of people, but nothing to do with the thyroid. It does one thing in your body, and that is regulate calcium. And interestingly, calcium is the only mineral in your body that has its own organ to regulate it. So very, very cool about that. Probably evolved from fish gills, actually. Maybe. But, yeah, calcium is really, really important in your body, not just for your bones. The bones is the major storage place. But your muscles, your brain, your blood clotting, all of that depends on having a very set range, a narrow range of calcium levels. So your body, your parathyroid glands, are always regulating your calcium, keeping it in that range. And when you have a problem with it, typically you have primary hyperparathyroidism, which is what I mostly treat. It's a tumor in one or more of the parathyroid glands. And they're benign tumors, but they cause the parathyroid glands to go a little crazy, make too much hormone, and so you end up with high calcium levels. And this can wreck havoc more than you would expect for just a little. One little mineral to be slightly off causes all sorts of problems. So, yeah, that's what I do. [00:15:32] Speaker A: Wow. And is it? So I guess you have four of them. [00:15:37] Speaker B: The only thing in your body you have four of as well. [00:15:39] Speaker A: That's what I mean. Like, the body redundancy. So, like, I'm thinking. I'm thinking, for example, like, the internal and external carotids, when you hear about people who have a blockage, you know, well, the brain evolved a structure to have enough redundancy to make sure that the brain always remained. [00:15:57] Speaker B: Oh, it says blood. [00:15:57] Speaker A: Yeah, blood and oxygen. [00:15:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:59] Speaker A: And so I'm thinking about the redundancy here, too. You need, I don't. I don't know exactly the percentage, but you needed a huge. You need a huge clot on, like, both sides before you actually really start feeling symptomatic, as I understand it. And so, for the parathyroid, does. Does there have to be. Does like, one nodule have to be messed up, or does it have to. [00:16:18] Speaker B: Be like it's actually just one? Because what happens is it's a problem with making too much hormone or becoming dysregulated. So instead of the normal, like, response, so normal parathyroid gland will make hormone in response to the calcium level. So if the calcium level is low, it makes more hormone, which raises the calcium. But a parathyroid tumor will not act that way. It will just keep making hormone, which keeps that system up without that negative feedback. So without that negative feedback loop to turn off the parathyroid glands, it just keeps going and going. So one parathyroid tumor, usually that's what people have. It's just a single parathyroid tumor. The other three are normal, and actually, they become suppressed. So they are basically asleep while this other gland is, like, going crazy making hormone. [00:17:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I wondered that, because I'm thinking. I'm thinking back into the cell. You know, you have. You have these redundant proteins, but if one of them is the workhorse, then the rest of them either don't get transcribed at all or they don't get activated. They just, like, hang out and wait their turn. So if you remove that tumor, you remove that one problem gland, everything else. [00:17:31] Speaker B: Goes back to normal, immediately kick in and start working again. Yeah, they start the job. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's not like if you had one parathyroid gland die, for example, you would never know it, because the other three would just make the hormone. Yeah. [00:17:47] Speaker A: That's really fascinating. What are some of the most common signs and symptoms of parathyroid disease? [00:17:52] Speaker B: Well, see, that's where it gets interesting, because the most common symptom is fatigue. And the next most common symptom is brain fog, which we all have. Right. [00:18:04] Speaker A: All the time. [00:18:04] Speaker B: So. And to complicate this, but, you know, I will say, you know, if you leave it untreated, it can cause cardiac arrhythmias, like atrial fibrillation. It can cause high blood pressure, which can lead to strokes. It can cause kidney failure, kidney stones. It can cause really bad osteoporosis and fractures. It can cause reflux, constipation. It messes with the GI tract. So it does all of these things. But. But the big symptom that actually affects people's life the most, fatigue. And unfortunately, the demographic is post menopausal women that are affected the most by this. And so a lot of times, people are ignored. A lot of patients are ignored. They're told that it's just menopause, but this is pretty crippling fatigue. I mean, you know, everybody's tired. Yes, but there's a difference. People will often be able to point to when it started, they'll say, I, you know, I had, I was fine. I was active, normal, and now I can't go a day without taking a nap every time I get home. Like, it's different. And I have to explain this to endocrinologists, too. I'm like, you know, don't just discount somebody who says they have new fatigue. Cause often they are. Doctors can be very dismissive of their patients, and it's insulting. Honestly, it's not helpful, but they're very dismissive, especially of postmenopausal women. So I think a lot of times, that's why patients like me so much, is because, one, I take them seriously. I'm the first one to tell them that actually, there is a reason why you feel so tired. And then I can make it better. And it's sort of amazing when you do this operation, within a few weeks, most people are feeling that energy come back. They're not sleeping it all the time. They're, you know, they're waking up more refreshed. Their brain is clearer. So it's pretty incredible. Yeah. [00:19:59] Speaker A: I can see why this would be such a rewarding career path, you know? [00:20:04] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:20:05] Speaker A: You talk to people. I remember I was on a plane sitting next to a cataract surgeon, and she said to me, like, oh, glaucoma, never like that. It's always a battle. There's just the next thing, and the next thing. That pressure never really goes down. Your patients get older. Other things happen to them. This is, as we've been saying, it's like a lifelong relationship with those patients. She said, no I go in, I take the cataract out, the patient sees, they're thrilled, and bye bye. Bye. Next patient, you know, and I. So do you have patients that have to come back or usually once you operate, they check in with you. Twelve months and that's it. [00:20:43] Speaker B: So I get labs about six weeks and oftentimes that's kind of it. They can go on their way after that. Most of the time, you don't ever need a second operation because I look at all four parathyroid glands when I'm in there, and the most common reason why somebody would need a second operation is that they have a second tumor that's not evaluated. And that's just, I can look at all four because I do this all the time and I'm experienced. But most surgeons doing this operation are not very experienced, so they will only go after a tumor that's seen on the scan. I don't need a scan. I don't even care if all the scans are negative. I know you have this based on your labs. Like, that's how we diagnose it. And so I go in blindly, look at all four parathyroid glands and figure it out, whereas a lot of surgeons will not do that. They'll only look at one gland. If you do that, there's a, you know, fair chance that the person will not be cured because they may have a second tumor, and that occurs in maybe 30% of patients. So, you know, that's why people travel to me, because I'm really good at this and I can usually get people cured the first time. [00:21:51] Speaker A: That's amazing. Wow, that's so cool. So you love operating, and the parathyroid's your gym. Why did you get an MBA? [00:22:04] Speaker B: Yeah, it was interesting. So I was, I was at a center of surgeons, and it was the only other center in the US that just does parathyroid surgery. At the time, it was the only one. And still I came out here and I was in Tampa, I was the medical director, so I was pretty, you know, having a lot of success there. And, you know, there were multiple reasons for getting the MBA. One is I just really love learning things. So it was kind of a fun thing to do, but I was a full time surgeon, so it was a bit of a time commitment, and I had two, you know, I had two young kids at the time and my husband, but I basically did it because I thought, if I'm moving forward, it is helpful. Like, it's always going to be useful to have this. I was thinking at the time that I might want to go into hospital administration. So that is always helpful. So if I wanted to go and be a chief medical officer or something like that, this would be helpful. That's, I think, why I originally did it. It's hard to remember because it's been a few years now, and my reasons have changed. Before COVID Yeah, exactly. [00:23:18] Speaker A: Everything was before COVID Yeah. [00:23:20] Speaker B: Plus, my thoughts on it have changed. You know, at the time, I was thinking, become a chief medical officer, maybe, and I was trying to decide what I wanted to do with my life. And I was getting a little bit burned out from surgery, so I was kind of thinking of quitting surgery entirely. And actually, that's what I ended up doing, you know, when I was at the. For the last year of my MBA or during that year, because it was two year program. First year I did when I was, like, at the height of my career there, basically. And then I quit during the second year, and I was, you know, I quit surgery. I thought, I'm not gonna do operating anymore. Maybe I'll go into some sort of, you know, admin position or something in the business of medicine. And I figured the MBA would be really helpful. [00:24:11] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm having a flashback to your group was up giving a presentation, and you. I don't remember which class it was in, but I remember you looking at your phone, and you had. You, like, called everything to a halt. You said, I'm so sorry. I operated yesterday. This is a patient. And the teacher was like, oh, go. [00:24:29] Speaker B: Yeah, it's true. Every patient gets my cell phone number. And so if there are any issues, people will call me. And I think that they. It ends up not being an emergency. But, you know, it's always helpful for patients to get your cell phone. I would tell that any. Any surgeons listening, it's like a magic trick. Give them your cell phone number. They call you way less than you think they will. They're usually very respectful. [00:24:51] Speaker A: True. Actually, I had. I had gum grafting done, like, two years ago or something, just like this whole bottom row of gums needed to be replaced. And that. That was actually a very cool procedure. But that doctor gave me his cell number, and he said, look, you're going to be bruised. You're going to be swollen. It's all going to be painful, but feel free to text me. And I did. At one point, I texted him and said, hey, this is happening. And he called me, like, right away. I was so surprised. He called me right away. And, yeah, yeah, Cynthia, that sounds normal. You can always take some more Advil or whatever and you'll. You'll be fine, you know, but, yeah, that was, it actually really did make a big difference. Like, oh, wow. [00:25:32] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:25:33] Speaker A: Thank you, doctor. That's so appreciate. I'm so appreciative of that. [00:25:36] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. No, it's. It's a big thing. And, yeah, we can get into how the business degree might help, but I think partly getting the degree is helpful because it helps you see other solutions to things and see other ways of solving things. And surgeons are so conditioned to never give out their cell phone number. When I tell surgeons, they are, like, on the floor, shocked that I give everyone my cell phone number because it is so unheard of. Well, think about it. I mean, think about, like, I didn't see a primary care doctor for the first three years I moved here because I could never, like, reach their office. I would call and it would just ring and ring and, you know, I just, I can't. I can't be on hold for five minutes. So we don't think about kind of the patient experience, but I do. I think about the patient experience. It is very calculated. I mean, it's how the patient finds me. Fills out the forms. I have done the form in a certain way to give them a certain experience. So you have to think about all of that. And giving your cell phone is one more thing. It actually is really good for healthcare, too, because a lot of times patients, when anything goes bad, or even not bad, but they have an unexpected symptom that they feel afterwards that might be nothing. And I can calm them down with a 32nd call or a text, but if I didn't do that, they might go to the ER. I mean, there are patients who, you know, they get very, very anxious after surgery, understandably, or. And they. They aren't sure if something's normal and, you know, they'll rush to the ER. Well, I can prevent them from going to the ER by calling them or if they call me or text me. So it's really, really helpful to give out my cell phone. [00:27:24] Speaker A: I think that's a fantastic point about thinking about the patient experience, because even as scientists, we're always looking to target the root cause, same as you. We're gonna go right to the root of the problem. We're gonna fix it, and God be the way, but we aren't trained to think about the patient experience. Is this going to burn? Is it going to itch? How often will you have to administer this treatment? How long acting is this? You know, there's so many other things about what happens in the translational component of science and then beyond once it gets into the clinic, you know, that I think so many people don't even think about. And on top of that, it's. It's also thinking about what the current, like, state of the industry, state of the science is and how will your treatment actually help, you know, because at least, let's take something like depression, for example. I mean, there's so many therapeutic options for this now, and every drug is gonna say, well, we do that, but better. But we do that, but better. But do you cause insomnia? Do you cause dizziness? Do you cause, you know, there's so many other things to think about outside of the cell and the organ that you're working in. So just trying to bring it back to the people who are in grad school right now are thinking about a career in translational science. That's always something to consider. [00:28:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I think. And you're thinking about it a lot more than most doctors do. And that's. I think one of the problems with medicine is that we're doctors are pretty disconnected from the patient experience and the patient journey. And I'm sure in your industry, you think about it a lot more. Like, how is this patient going to even find a doctor who will prescribe this? Like, you have to think about that. Whereas doctors don't, a lot of times they don't think, how is the patient going to find me? You know, how do I. How do I get them to build trust? Because one of the things, you know, one of the hardest part about my job, it's not the operation. Those are kind of my break days. It's. It's getting people to trust me. Getting people to travel across the country or across the atlantic to have surgery with me. I mean, that's. I have to convince them. And so I've got to build trust online same way you do. Like, if you're developing a drug, developing anything, like, you've got to develop trust and from the doctors have to trust you, and the patients have to trust you to some extent. So it's that issue of kind of understanding what the patient is going to go through to find you to use your product. And we don't think about that as doctors. And that's one of the benefits of business school, is to actually see things from a different point of view, see problems in a different way. And I think, you know, one of the questions you had asked was kind of like, what, what do you. What did you learn from business school. It's hard to say, honestly, you know, looking back, I learned a lot, and I. And I love it. And I think one of the big benefits was actually getting the confidence that I could do this, that I could just go and start my business, because I started a business. I mean, this is a. It's a startup, and I treat this like a lean startup, you know, legitimately like a lean startup. So I think, you know, business school gave me the confidence to say, like, okay, I can do this, because, you know, business is not really as hard as I thought it was. You know, you're given this sense of, like, oh, there's these people who just know business, and they know it. Like. And that's. That's B's. This is all stuff you can learn, and it's not that hard. If you've gotten a PhD, you can understand this stuff. [00:31:09] Speaker A: Boards, exams. [00:31:11] Speaker B: Yeah, you can 100% understand basic business concepts. It's not that hard, truly. [00:31:17] Speaker A: But I did make our friend Melissa explain accounting to me like I was. [00:31:22] Speaker B: A high school freshman, because accounting, I'm not. I mean, I'm okay with accounting, but, like, I mostly, you know, and I learned, too, that, you know, you don't need to know a ton about accounting. All I, like, I manage all my finances on an excel spreadsheet, and I was a little bit embarrassed to admit that, because I was like, yeah, I really, like, I don't want to deal with quickbooks and all that. I. You know, I had quickbooks and that. Like, I'm really. I look at an Excel spree spreadsheet, and I track all my expenses and my incoming revenue, you know, over time, month by month, and it's really easy for me to do it that way. And Excel is actually pretty good at it. And so I went to an accountant to do my taxes, and I said, yeah. I was like, I know it's an excel file. And I just. I loved him because he was this older guy. He's like, well, if it's working, so what? You know, like, you know, unless you're. Unless you're a big business. I'm a small business. I've got three employees. You know, I don't need really expensive software, accounting software. I can just do it on an Excel file and keep track of it, and one day it won't work anymore, and I'll actually get something else. But for now, yeah, I think knowing that, okay, it doesn't need to be complicated. This can actually be pretty simple. You can actually just track your expenses on an Excel spreadsheet and do your budgeting on an Excel spreadsheet, at least in the beginning, you know, you don't need to, you don't need to make it harder than it is. [00:32:51] Speaker A: Makes sense. [00:32:53] Speaker B: And. Yeah. And I think I learned that from business school, too, was that sometimes people who, you know, they. When you're in the doctor's lounge, I have to stop myself because I was going to say something kind of offensive. I was going to say was that there are a lot of older men, especially surgeons, who think that they're really good at playing the stock market. [00:33:15] Speaker A: Uh huh. [00:33:16] Speaker B: And, um. And it's sort of hilarious listening to them, you know, because maybe they have business degrees, but I doubt it. But, you know, I listen to them and I'm like, hmm, okay. You know, like, put your money in an index fund and walk away. And that was, that was the, you know, the financial advice I always, like, thought was legit. And then med school or the business school taught me that. Yes, that is. That is pretty legit. That's a legit way of saving your money. Index fund, walk away. Totally. But, but, yeah, if you're. If you're around a lot of these, like, very confident, especially white, especially older men, you know, you come to think that there's some, like, secret society or secret understanding and business that you don't know. Right. And then you find out there isn't there? There's an old boys club, but there's nothing all that's, you know, exceptional about it. It's just that they support each other because they're also old white men. [00:34:11] Speaker A: I follow, I think it's called girls that invest on Instagram. And I think I missed some Ron cow, or she wrote a book on it, too, and it was exactly that. There's no secret meetings, there's no magic whatever. You just start. And maybe you talk to a financial advisor, maybe you do some of your own Internet research, but this is not a secret world that you're not invited to. Just invite yourself and just start doing it. [00:34:43] Speaker B: And maybe we should cut out the thing about the. We should cut that out. [00:34:47] Speaker A: That's fine. [00:34:48] Speaker B: I honestly, I'm very careful about how I appear online. [00:34:53] Speaker A: On this podcast. We talk a lot about the privilege of old white men, though, because. [00:34:57] Speaker B: Okay, well, that's. That's it. And there is a. There is a privilege to, like having that confidence. You know, that's definitely that. You know, there's this we're swimming in privileged world. And, you know, if you. If you don't recognize that there are people with a lot more privilege sitting right next to you, and they're gonna come with different assumptions and different confidence levels. And sometimes you have to realize that they don't know it more than you. You know, they really don't. [00:35:31] Speaker A: Exactly. And that. Well, that's why that ends up being a large part of the conversation here, because, you know, you go to meetings and you look at the podium, and it's usually the same, you know, group of speakers. It's mostly white speakers, a lot of male speakers. You know, you go to. You go to these dinners, promotional things. The same doctors are usually on the speaker circuit, you know, and you're right, there's so much confidence, and they come off being so confident about themselves. But one of my favorite things to do as an MSL, when a doctor would come in and kind of try to, you know, put some swagger on, you know, I would introduce myself. I have a PhD in trabecular metric cell biology, and just watch their jaw drop, you know? Very cool. You've done. You've done a bunch of surgeries, you've prescribed a bunch of drugs. I spent 15 years living in, like, what, a ten micron space, 360 around the eye? Like, yeah, yeah. You want to talk science, or do you want to just be a blowhard? And that actually worked really, really well, because if you meet them where they're at, rather than acting kind of, you know, meek and subservient, which I think a lot of they expect, you know, they really. A lot of women are. [00:36:51] Speaker B: Especially. Even. Yeah. In women, I mean, it's very much. I mean, this is surgery. This is male dominated. And so as a female surgeon, you have to prove yourself ten times over to get some of the same respect from them. And. And it's frustrating. It definitely is. But, yeah, I don't know what the solution is. [00:37:18] Speaker A: You're going back to what you were saying, how you. You actually take your patients seriously. You know, that that's the way to beat them at their own game, rather than, you know, oh, you're tired. Yeah. Drink a cup of tea. Drink a cup of. [00:37:32] Speaker B: Right. You know, or exercise more, lose weight or. Yeah, yeah. [00:37:35] Speaker A: Yes. [00:37:36] Speaker B: You know, and that may all help. That. That all will help, but it's not gonna treat your issue. But, yeah, I mean, it is, you know, on an individual level, it's kind of. Yeah, I do. I do take them serious, and that is why my patients love me, I think. Is that, like, I actually. I do take them seriously. When I do my Facebook lives, I'm not condescending. I, you know, I do respect people and in some ways, though, that has made it more challenging because I don't have that arrogant attitude. And you see other men with that arrogant attitude and it gets them far. It certainly gets you far in the world of medicine. I know women who act really confident in the or are possibly treated a little differently than men. When I was in training, I remember, you know, if a female surgeon, you know, complained about something in the or, it was really looked as a negative. It was, it was not a good thing. But I watched, I watched grown white men throw tantrums, like literal tantrums in the or, and there was, there were no negative consequences. They got what they wanted and, you know, and that's, that was happening. That was a few years ago. But I doubt that, that it's changed considerably because a lot of them are still operating. [00:39:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:08] Speaker B: So I think things are changing slowly. It's not as acceptable to throw a tantrum in the or now if you throw instruments, you really, you know, you get a, you get a wrist slap at least. But, yeah, so, so it's not as accepted. And things are changing. I think, you know, the world always is getting better slowly. Things are changing for the better. But it was definitely, you know, in surgery, it was definitely an uphill battle, being female and going through all of this. And none of the surgeon, male surgeons would really understand. They don't get it. No, they don't. They don't see it because they're swimming in their own privilege. But. [00:39:49] Speaker A: Right. Yeah, but let's, so going back to talking about how you would, how you gain trust with your patients, let's talk about some of your online activities, because again, if you're going to come off as maybe you don't want to come across as overconfident, but you instead come across as someone who cares and someone who's available, which I think is kind of a superpower. [00:40:19] Speaker B: Well, you have to come across as confident, though. I mean, I come across, I try to finally, you know, kind of straddle the line between confidence and arrogance because people like arrogant surgeons. They like arrogant surgeons. And so they think that at some point you have to be a little bit arrogant because people trust that. Sure. I see comments online recently, I saw a Reddit, Reddit discussion that somebody sent me. It was what makes a great surgeon? And it was a resident, a general surgery resident asking this in a residency thing. And so many non surgeons answered, which I thought one was hilarious because how do you know? But a lot of the people will say things like, well, you don't want your surgeon to be too nice. You want them to be good in the OR, as if you can't have both. That's making an assumption that anybody who's a jerk to you in the pre op area is going to be a great surgeon. That usually is not the case. If they're a jerk in the pre op, they could be a complete ass in the or as well. And they may not do a great operation, so. But it's funny that people kind of think that way. They always will say stuff like, well, I just want somebody who's, you know, technically good. I don't care if they're, you know, a jerk, but really, being a jerk does not equate to technical prowess at all. But it's really, really hard to judge anybody in their surgical abilities without actually watching them operate, which is why I never want to have an operation in my life. I just avoid surgery because you never know how good they are. But I think, you know, my results, I think, can, can speak for themselves. I do have a lot of people online who will. Who have had surgery with me and can talk about it, but when I do my online outreach, because that's how people find me. They find me online. But the way I do that, I mean, I have to show a level of confidence that is very high, and I'm okay with that because I am pretty confident in my abilities with this disease. [00:42:31] Speaker A: So you have the data on your side, too? [00:42:33] Speaker B: Yeah. So very confident and then, but also very knowledgeable and very down to earth. You have to have people trust you. They're not going to get on a plane and have surgery with you unless they trust you. [00:42:48] Speaker A: Right. [00:42:48] Speaker B: So it's so important to get that trust established and, and you can do that. You really can do that with Facebook live. [00:42:56] Speaker A: Wow. [00:42:57] Speaker B: Because I've shown that you can. [00:42:59] Speaker A: So how does that work? You know, if you're working on building this confident, trustworthy brand online, how did you start? [00:43:11] Speaker B: So, actually, when I was in my last job, I took every opportunity to do any online thing that was available, and I would encourage everybody to do this. Even if you don't have to get patients, the more you can sort of build your brand, the better. And so I was obviously kind of advertising for myself other place, you know, I was part of them, but my name was there. I would say my name every time. And so some of those people, they still find videos of me when I was at my last place and they want to find me specifically because of that. And they'll come to me specifically. So, you know, I got every opportunity. And so if there was a Q and a online, I would do it. People just love videos. Videos are just incredible. They, they like watching videos more so than anything else. And that's why, you know, that's why things like Instagram, Facebook, there, they prioritize videos. People like videos. And what I realized was, you don't need a nice setup. You, you don't need a nice background. You don't need nice lighting. You don't need a fancy microscope. People don't care about that. At least when they're coming for, for a doctor, they actually really like if you're kind of down to earth. So the Facebook lives. When I started, they were so unprofessional. I mean, I look at them now and I'm like, oh, my God, I sound terrible. The lighting's off, everything's wrong. But it doesn't matter because they're not, they're not looking for that. It's almost better in some cases if you don't look quite as polished, if it looks like you're kind of sitting in your home office and just chatting. So for doctors, at least, I don't know about your, you probably need to look a little more professional about when talking to patients. Sometimes it helps to be just that down to earth doctor. [00:45:10] Speaker A: Sure. Because otherwise, I think if it looks too slick, if it looks too well produced, it does kind of give you the, give you the feels a little bit. [00:45:20] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, it's tricky. Like, with the pharmaceutical industry. Like, no, pharmaceutical ads are slick. And that's good in a way, but also, like, it makes you think, you know, they're hiding something. Like, they're opening, they're, they're, they're washing over something and they're missing some of the fact, you know, it's just too slick. And if you actually, you know, sometimes the smart things they will do is, like, have patient. And this is actually, as an MSL, I'm sure, you know, like, one of the smartest thing you can do. One of the companies I work with is for hypoparathyroidism. So it's the opposite problem. But I've worked with them because I have patients come to me asking for help managing this. And so I do help them manage it. It's more of a, like, medication management, but there are, there is an injectable drug being developed that is, like, very, very necessary. So I have dealt with this company, you know, in trying to help them kind of. And my. I feel like the way I can help them is by helping them, like, reach patients. Like, what, what do you do on Facebook? What apps do you put out? Because it's not always obvious to them, and it's not always obvious that the slickest looking video you can produce might not be the most effective for making patients trust you. But one thing they do really well is that they get lots of patient interviews, and so a lot of their videos are, like, just the patients with it talking about their experiences, and that's, like, brilliant. Of course, sometimes even that's a little too slick. And I wonder if maybe if they, like, made it a little bit rougher, you know, that it actually might be a little more believable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:46:57] Speaker A: So how did you come up with these ideas? Is it just a trial and error, or did you see, did you recognize, like, patients actually want someone to talk to? So I'm going to start doing these Facebook lives. Like, how did this stuff start getting built in your mind? [00:47:14] Speaker B: My boss was very attuned, my prior former boss, my own boss now, but my former boss was very attuned to this stuff in how you develop trust. And he was very smart about people when it came to people, about these little things that you do. For example, when I started working there, um, one of the things that he emphasized was when you go out to talk to, after you do the operation, you go out and you talk to the family. [00:47:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:48] Speaker B: And one of the things he said was you always take off your mask and your hat and you always sit down to talk to them. Always. Every time. Because this sends a message. If you just pull your mask down and you walk out there and you stand over them. [00:48:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:06] Speaker B: That's what most. And that's what most surgeons, and I watch it, that's what happens with most surgeons. They just kind of pull it down. They go out there, they're standing above the pan like, yep, she did great. And it sends a much different message if you take everything off and you sit down, even if you only sit for 10 seconds, because I've kind of counted it sometimes. I'm like, I'm not sitting for very long, but you're sitting next to them and you say, everything went great, she's doing well, she's just waking up. It's the same message, but it's interpreted very differently. You know, in the, in that first one where I'm standing over you, you know, I don't have time for you, but if I sit down, that means I do have time. And when I'm talking to patients beforehand, I always talk to the patients. I never stand above them asking questions. That's what everybody else does. That's what all the doc. Most doctors do. They'll be standing at the desk. They have a rolling desk, you know, they'll be standing at the desk looking down at the patient going, okay, so let's talk about what's going to happen. I always, I will spend an extra five minutes searching for a chair, and I bring it next to the patient, and I sit down every single time. [00:49:09] Speaker A: Wow. [00:49:10] Speaker B: It's those things. It's those little things about the patient experience that really changes how they think of you in a way that they probably wouldn't even recognize. Like, they're not consciously thinking, oh, I'm really glad she sat down, because that really builds trust. Like, they're not thinking that obviously, they're not even focused on, but in their mind, it's clicking. And, you know, I'm sure as an MSL, you're doing these little tricks, too. Like, I watch them because I go to these meetings, and the MSL will talk to me, and I watch the tricks they're doing. Like, they're doing the same thing. They're always sitting next to me. They always will start the conversation. You know, they're salespeople. They're not salespeople, but. They're not salespeople. But you know what I mean? Like, they're. They want to get to know what my issue is so that they can help me, which is kind of classic sales, right? Like, that is find out the pain points. So find out why I would care about this. What are my pain points in dealing with these patients? Who would I deal with? And then how can they help me kind of understand the disease or understand what they're working on, you know, which is. And not just the MSL. The MSL is kind of more advanced. But you first talk with just, like, sort of the reps or whatever, and the reps are really good at selling, and that's what their focus is. But their focus really is, like, getting to know me. And so they're doing all this stuff, like, they're getting right next to me, and they're, you know, but people don't realize that, like, all that stuff works on patients, too. It's not really any different. It's. There's a lot of similarities. [00:50:36] Speaker A: But, see, this is interesting, you know? Cause you're exactly right. I kind of imagined both scenarios as you were describing them. You know, the doctor comes in standing over the patient, you know? Oh, yeah, your mom did great. Everything's fine. All right. Thank you. Blah, blah, blah. Moving on. Versus. Yeah, you coming in, taking your cap off, taking your mask off, sitting down. Now we're peers now. Now we're just two people versus. You know, I am taller than you. I am bigger than you. You know what I mean? There's something very imposing, in a way, like that, but that's more imposing. Body language. And I'm thinking back to graduate school or just any leadership that I've had in different businesses. And the people that. The people that I've related to the best are the ones who really do have that level of emotional intelligence. We talk about that a lot on this podcast, because that's not something that's taught in grad school. That is not like communication and EQ and body language is not taught in grad school. It's just all about doing your bench research, doing it well, getting your result, communicating it as much brevity as you can, as efficiently as you can, and moving on. So. [00:51:54] Speaker B: And that's medicine, too. I mean, it's the same thing. You're focused on this thing. Yeah, yeah. [00:51:58] Speaker A: But if you want to go into business now, you have to do. Start observing body language. Like you were just saying, you have to see what works, what doesn't work. And if you think about it from other people's perspectives. And so if you go to talk to a customer and you sit down with them or, you know, you. You work on building trust because you have these videos online that shows that you are, in fact, a subject matter expert or. But also, you know, here's a picture of me with my dog. I'm a normal human being, you know? And having. Having those kinds of skills makes you a much, much better. I'll say much, much better employee, but it'll make you a better leader. It'll make you just much more effective in whatever career path you're going at, because you can meet people where they're at, you know? And. And I'm sure you've known people like this, too, because I always go back to one person I worked with a long time ago who was brilliant. I mean, just so smart, absolutely perfect on paper. But his EQ was, like, zero. You know? Like, if you would tell him, like, okay, I have five minutes. I mean, 15 minutes later, he's still talking. I would see people, like, walking away, and he's still walking after them and talking, and we're like, oh, my gosh, you know what I mean? [00:53:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:16] Speaker A: So it's those, those skills. I mean, I think they can, they can be taught. You can learn them, but you have to be open to figuring that out. [00:53:26] Speaker B: Yes. You have to be open and you have to consciously do it. You have to consciously get better. And that's, I mean, that's how I got good at this operation was I, you know, what makes a great surgeon, really? It's consciously finding ways to get better every day and focusing on that. And that's how I got good of the operation. That's how I'm getting better with dealing with patients and with people in general. But, yeah, I think in, in business it is, the relationships are so important. They're so key. And, you know, a lot of scientists, a lot of doctors aren't taught that because it's not part of the core curriculum of medicine. It's not, you know, now I think medical schools are sort of recognizing that it's really important, but it's still not like, you know, it's not as important as memorizing the disease process and memorizing the cells involved. Like, that's much more important, you know, but if you're going to actually treat medicine and may. Medicine is a business. Right. Like, and partly, you know, part of the problem with medicine right now is that a lot of doctors have given up a ton of autonomy. The, they have let the business leaders, meaning like the MBAs, take over medicine and our hospital CEO's are not doctors. Right. And the main executive team is not made of doctors. It's made of people with MBAs. And we've sort of given up a lot of that. And we gave it up because a lot of us didn't know any better. Doctors in general want to be doctors. They don't want to deal with this stuff. They don't want to be in business. But we need more doctors going into hospital admin and leadership roles. That was partly why I did the NBA, although that's obviously not what I ended up doing. [00:55:14] Speaker A: Not yet. [00:55:15] Speaker B: Who knows? Who knows? But, yeah, you never know. It always helps. But, yeah, all of this stuff, I think that having confidence and then having the ability to deal with people and to consciously get better at it because I'm an introvert and I'm very introverted. I find it exhausting, you know, being in a crowd of people after a while. But interestingly, I love doing Facebook lives even though they're somewhat exhausting, but I love presenting. Yeah, yeah, I love doing this stuff even though, yeah, I'm kind of. Kind of introverted. And I think a lot of this stuff I did have to learn when. When he taught me, you know, sit down. Take off it. Yeah. It seems obvious in retrospect, but so few doctors do it, and it makes a huge difference. And I only learned it, like, after I'd finished all my training. [00:56:14] Speaker A: Yeah. I was going to ask you, does. Does posting make you nervous? [00:56:24] Speaker B: No. [00:56:25] Speaker A: Okay. [00:56:25] Speaker B: No. In what sense? I'm. Yeah, I'm very, you know, if I'm just posting about parathyroid disease I used to be. I think it gets, it gets like anything. It gets much easier every time you do it. [00:56:37] Speaker A: Right? [00:56:38] Speaker B: Every time you do something, you get more comfortable. I know, like, in my early videos, I wasn't really that comfortable. You can see that I'm a little uncomfortable now. It's just natural. I just turn it on and I just talk to myself for an hour, and I'm okay with doing that. And. But I think in the beginning, you know, it was a little bit, it was more just uncomfortable a little bit. But, like, posting on Instagram and that kind of stuff. I mean, I'm making all my stuff that I post. So, in canva, just plug for canva there. It's a great, great software, but, yeah, so I make, I make all that stuff. And I think that I'm very private in other ways, so I do get a little bit paranoid posting anything that is in any way political. And honestly, I wish that I weren't so paranoid about it, but I'm extremely paranoid about that because you never know how people will interpret things. But on my business website, there's nothing, anything controversial at all. So I don't have to worry about that now. [00:57:46] Speaker A: I ask because, you know, as we were talking before we started recording, trying to build my brand now is. Is a little bit of a difficult process because, you know, on one hand, I mean, I already have a full time job, but I do want to grow the podcast. And I personally just find it mentally exhausting to be thinking about creating content, making it novel, making it interesting enough, you know, does, uh, is my mascara bleeding onto my cheekbones? And, I mean, there's a million different things that I just, I end up. And I suffer from this all the time. Paralysis by analysis. You know, my boss called me out on it in grad school because I was so bad at writing grants, because I just, I would always talk myself out of things, and it's something that I need to just break out of and just start doing. And so I get nervous every time I post something. Every time I, you know, make a video talking about a paper that I read or whatever, you know? And so I just was curious. As someone who is more introverted than I am. I mean, putting yourself out there like that but doesn't bother you. That's amazing. [00:58:58] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. For this stuff, it doesn't, because I love it, you know? And this is. And, like, I think if I had to post something where I wasn't as sure about, like, I see some doctors on social media, like, posting, like, they'll do a reaction video for something, and they have no idea what they're talking about. This. This one guy, you know, was like, he put up this video, and he's like, this man has a large goiter, and he clearly had, like, a mass coming from down here. Like, clearly not a goiter. Like, your thyroid's here. But I was just like, how do you have the confidence to go on there and say something that's so wrong, you know? Like, that's just wrong? But I think with parathyroid disease, I know it so well that I'm. I trust myself to not really screw up too badly. But I do get. I would get paranoid in the past, like, if I was saying something, if I didn't say it correct, like, if I said it and I was like, oh, that could be misinterpreted or I need to qualify that, you know, because I'll spend a lot of time. It's like somebody will say, well, what's a normal calcium level? Well, I could spend the next hour qualifying my answer. Well, in this case, you know, you can see this and, well, okay, but unless. Unless you. And so if I make a statement like, this is a normal. I get very nervous that that will be misinterpreted because I haven't had a chance to, like, qualify everything. So I kind of know what you're saying. Like, I do the same thing where I don't want to, you know, post it. And I have had the experience of, like, posting on facebook, like, you know, because you have to get. You have to give it in bites, you know, like, little sound bite, like, and so it's very hard for me to boil down this disease, which to me is, like, so much, like, boil it down to tiny little sound bites. And when I do, there's always somebody who misinterprets it. Like, I'll make a statement that's, like, categorically true. Like, it's just true. You know, it's like. It's, like, high calcium. High blood calcium is usually caused by parathyroid disease. That's. That's a true statement. It's. It's just true. Like, there's a. But then, like, somebody. The first comment, I'll be like, well, yeah, but I had calcium and I had cancer. It's like, okay, well, okay, well, that, that doesn't negate my statement, you know, but. [01:01:14] Speaker A: But we're usually. Is doing a lot of heavy lifting and that's. [01:01:17] Speaker B: Yeah, and I could, I could also, like, qualify, you know, my inclination is to qualify everything to say, okay, high blood costume is usually caused by a parathyroid tumor. Although you have to look at all things and consider. You have to look at the pth level and the vitamin D, and you have to make sure that you're not taking too many vitamin D substances, and you have to make sure that you're gonna. Okay, but then it's a whole paragraph and then it's not suitable for instagram. You know what I mean? [01:01:37] Speaker A: Right. [01:01:38] Speaker B: It's like, okay, I get it. You had cancer and you had high, but that's not, you know, and so, and that. That kind of thing will get to me. And you. You have to learn to, like, not respond. [01:01:48] Speaker A: Sure. [01:01:48] Speaker B: Because, like, you're never gonna win online. Like, you. You've already lost, you know? And I think I take that mentality of, like, you're never going to win an online argument. Don't try. Yeah, just. Just don't do it. You know, just kind of stick with what's true and try to help people. Try to post things that are true and that, you know, may guide people, but, but don't argue online. It's not worth it. No, that's what I tell to anybody posting online. Yeah. [01:02:19] Speaker A: Now, I think it's an interesting discussion to have about the outside, like the ex academic benefits of getting an MBA. Because, you know, when I started talking to people in my previous job about going to graduate school or going back to graduate school, one of them said, similar to you, like, well, you're a learner. You know, you're a book person. You like that stuff. And that is very much me. I like having an agenda and a curriculum, and these are my books and these are my tasks. You know, like, I learned better that way. You know, a lot of people have said, look, a lot of these things you can learn organically. A lot of these things you can learn online. Or there's probably some kind of free course that you can take, like in project management. You know, there's tons of courses that are not free, but you can take project management courses etcetera, to learn how to do these things. And it's not about that, certainly. I think when we think about the people that we had in class, that we learned even more from them in some ways and some of the courses than we did from our teachers, because we're coming at the problem from such different perspectives that, as you're saying, that gives you that kind of outside that ex academic benefit, because now you are next to advertising executives and people who are do accounting for a living and people who are also mds and people who are construction folks and they own these companies, and you're just like, okay, you have a totally different perspective on this from me based on your experience running your teams versus me working with my teams. That part, I think, actually was probably the most beneficial of all, is to learn how to learn how to think about situations from so many different perspectives. [01:04:08] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Because, and that, I think, was a good part about the executive part of it was everybody was working. Everybody was already in their careers. But, but even just like, taking these courses that I normally would never take, like, I had read some business stuff, you know, before getting an MBA. Right. You know, these kind of pop business books that are questionable, but, you know, and I had, I had done some of that. But when you're forced to take courses on, for example, like operations and logistics and that kind of stuff, and you have to look at things in a whole new way. Like, you know, even when we had to calculate how many checkout cashiers you'd need during the Christmas rush at, you know, a gift store, that's really, and I was like, wow, that's really interesting the way that they've looked at this problem, because hospitals have a huge problem with, like, getting patients to places on time and getting them out of the hospital quickly and efficiently and getting them to their scans at the time, like, it's a huge issue. And yet I've never heard of anybody talk about it in the same way. But it's essentially the same problem. You know, you're dealing with getting people through a process. And so it was really, really interesting because I think in a lot of healthy care in the healthcare world, a lot of people will get these, you know, a master's in healthcare administration or other degrees that are really focused on healthcare. And I think that is, you know, actually maybe not as good as getting a generic MBA course where you're exposed to something like that, where you wouldn't necessarily, I'm never going to be calculating how many cashiers I need, you know, at a gift store. But, but knowing that that problem can be approached that way, I might, I might apply it to how we allocate beds in the hospital. Yeah. Because if you, if you're all coming from the same education, you're all going to come up with the same answers. And I think that's kind of a problem in medicine. It's like we all have the same issues with patient care, but we're all going at it the exact same way. So we're all coming up with the same solutions, which makes you feel like you're smart, but you're not because you're not actually coming up with anything new. Right? [01:06:29] Speaker A: Right. [01:06:30] Speaker B: Now you're not looking at it in a new way. You're looking at it exactly the way that everybody else is looking at it. And so the problem continues because nobody can come up with something unique. [01:06:41] Speaker A: Right. And I think, from my perspective, hadn't worked in an office type position since, you know, I answered phones at the mortgage office where my sister worked, you know, before I started college. But like, that was about it. Most of my, most of my employment was as lab techs. And, you know, that as a graduate student, everything was in the lab. And so I think learning from other people about, I don't know, I guess in a way, how to think about these problems in perspectives that were totally unique to me, you know, because I never worked in an office because, I mean, anyone can tell you a lab full of 20 something, 30 something grad students, postdocs and technicians, I mean, it is a human resources nightmare, you know? And I mean, I'm sure just like any group of med students, residents that all just get together, you know what I mean? Wild. And so I think from my perspective, I just appreciated getting an MBA because it forced me out of that comfort zone. It forced me to think very, very differently. And as we've been talking about emotional intelligence and understanding, body language, etcetera, these are things that unless you take time to take a step out of your comfort zone and you think about those things and you learn from other people about those things, you're going to be, as you're saying, doomed to repeat the mistakes of your predecessors, whether it's how you're allocating space in a lab or in a hospital or how you're mentoring your students, which was how your mentor mentored you, you know, etcetera. Like, there's a lot of different negatives that come from staying just with your people and in your comfort zone. And certainly I think members of our class were very, we're very good. I think that we're very patient with some of us who are like, I've never worked in an office, so. [01:08:43] Speaker B: Even. [01:08:43] Speaker A: Like, our organizational behavior class, I actually really enjoyed, because looking at it from an employee perspective, you know? [01:08:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:50] Speaker A: Because in the lab, you work your hours and then you're done, you know? And the longer you're in the lab, the more work you're going to get done, the faster you graduate or get a paper published or whatever, you know? So even just thinking about something like a four hour, like a four day work week or maternity leave or, you know, very, very basic things that, you know, in academia, they're like, well, you know, you get the baby out and you're back and what, like four or six weeks you're back. Right. You know, and two weeks for me, two weeks. I just. Thinking about it, thinking about it from that perspective, in terms of business school, I thought was incredibly beneficial. Oh, my God, two weeks. Oh. Were you even recovered? [01:09:35] Speaker B: Yeah, it was rough. It was rough. I was a fourth year resident. [01:09:40] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. [01:09:40] Speaker B: So I had to get back to work. Two weeks? Yeah, I wouldn't recommend it. You know, thinking back, it. It wasn't good. [01:09:49] Speaker A: But if you, I mean, if people had, if a woman had a c section, would she still be expected to come back after two weeks? Because that's like major, major, major surgery. [01:10:01] Speaker B: I mean. Yeah. [01:10:04] Speaker A: Wow. [01:10:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [01:10:06] Speaker A: Okay. [01:10:06] Speaker B: I was still in quite a bit of pain when I went back, so I was, yeah, I was thinking about what you said with the. Do you get nervous posting things? I sort of forgot. I used to, I used to get very, very nervous. And even doing this, I'm a little bit nervous because I have no idea, like, who will hear it or who will end up. And it's, it's not what I usually talk about, but, yeah, I used to get super nervous about how I would come across, especially when doing podcasts. So I would. I. The other thing I do, I tell people, is take every, like, anytime somebody offers to put you on their podcast, always accept. Always, unless they're crazy. Unless they're really, really crazy. Like, if something really off the wall, but otherwise, always accept. It's always good. I've gone on, I. I still get patients from, like, this old, um, bone coach podcast that I did years ago when I was still in my old job. I talked to this guy about bone disease and parathyroid disease, and I still get. It's on his website, obviously. So I still get a few patients a year mentioning that they that's how they found me. I'm like, okay. So I. Yes, I tell people do everything, but until that started happening, until I started getting people. And I think what really built up my confidence in doing that was hearing the feedback from patients, because patients would say, I heard you on this podcast, and I knew I wanted you to be my surgeon. Like, and that's. Yeah, that's pretty positive. You know, that's a really. So once you hear that a few times, like, okay. Like, I actually sound okay, even though I feel like I'm messing up and I'm pausing too much and maybe I look like an idiot after a while. You see that? Okay. It's actually. It's actually okay. Yeah. So I did. I did feel that way initially. [01:11:55] Speaker A: My goal is to always put out things that are useful, you know, and I just never know what someone's gonna find useful or interesting, you know? And so that's. That's always been my goal with. With this and with anything that I post. I just want. I want people to see a little bit of. Some little bit of themselves, either in me or in my guests, you know, to say, okay, this person did it. And in your case, you know, she moved across the country with her family to a totally different state and built a private practice, you know, from the bottom up. And that's incredibly brave. And maybe I can do that, too, you know? And I always hope that someone. That my listeners can take something away from you. [01:12:43] Speaker B: Yeah. I feel like I should have given more advice or something, but main advice is it's hard, but be confident. [01:12:50] Speaker A: There you go. People want to get more advice from you. Doctor Diva Boone. How can they find you? [01:12:55] Speaker B: Sure. Sure you can. I have a website. It's my name, devaboone.com, I think. And then. But you can also go to my website for my business, which is southwest parathyroid.com. And, yeah, there's a contact form, so if you hit contact, it actually will come straight to me. So you will reach me. And if you're worried that you have parathyroid disease, I actually have a cool little diagnostic calculator on there, so you can put in your labs and see what it says. But, yeah. And it's pretty easy to find me, to be honest. Just search my name. [01:13:36] Speaker A: Excellent. Yeah. [01:13:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:13:37] Speaker A: Well, thank you so much, Doctor Diva Boone. This was. I could. I feel like I could talk to you all day. [01:13:43] Speaker B: I know. This is fun. Yeah, this is fun. Good luck. I don't look forward to the editing, and I have to have to edit everything. But good luck with that. [01:13:53] Speaker A: Thank you. [01:13:55] Speaker B: Yeah. And thank you for having me on. And good luck to everybody out there. [01:14:00] Speaker A: Yes, thank you. I want to thank doctor Diva Boone again for joining me today. You can find her at her website, divaboon.com. Or you can look up the Southwest Parathyroid center. Our next episode is going to be particularly interesting because coming up is the association of research in vision and Ophthalmology conference. And so we are taking the show on the road, and we're going to do some recordings and talk to people and kind of talk a little bit about the importance of conference attendance when it comes to building your career. So hope you join us then.