Never Stop Learning - With Dr. Sara Sarkey

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to today's episode of Bench to Boardroom. Glad that you're back. Today's episode is really good. I think it's with another friend from grad school, Dr. Sarah Sarke. Sarah and I worked together in a lab for about a year. I was helping her with some of her research before I started my own doctoral work. And her journey is different from everyone else's so far in that she actually started with her current company before she even defended. And she joined Takeda Pharmaceuticals six months before her defense as a publications director sorry, as a medical writer. And then she worked up to publications director. Then she switched over to strategy, and she's worked her way up in this same company for over twelve years to the point that she is now the vice president of Neuroscience and vaccines. So there's a lot of really good wisdom that Sarah shares and a lot of really good practical advice. So this episode is really, really good. You may want to take notes. [00:01:09] Speaker B: I know that I do. [00:01:13] Speaker C: You. [00:01:31] Speaker A: Sarah. Dr. Sarah Sarke. Welcome to bed to boardroom. [00:01:35] Speaker B: Thanks, Cindy. I'm so excited to be here. It's really good to see you. [00:01:40] Speaker A: So, for our listeners who don't know you, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself? [00:01:46] Speaker C: All right. [00:01:46] Speaker B: So, my name is Sarah Sarke. I currently live just outside of Boston, Massachusetts, and I work for Takeda Pharmaceuticals. So I am the VP of Neuroscience and vaccines for and actually, you know, came out of academia where we were sharing a lab at beautiful Loyola University Chicago. [00:02:09] Speaker A: I think if my listeners have been listening to the first three podcasts, you may notice a trend. I have started by just interviewing my friends from grad school who made the transition from academics to industry. And one of the things that I emphasized in the beginning was you never know where you and your friends are going to end up. And so, Sarah, when I think about you, I think about what movies and cheap food and whatever margaritas we could find that we make at someone's house because we were all broke. [00:02:42] Speaker B: Exactly. Yes. It's the nostalgic broke grad school days where yes, you're excited to just have card night or something. Exactly. [00:02:59] Speaker A: You and I actually worked together for a year in a lab, but then I ended up working with your husband for a few years while he and I were both finishing our PhDs. And we all had our methods of. [00:03:11] Speaker B: Getting through grad school, mostly imagining what else we could possibly do to avoid what we were doing at the moment. Yeah. [00:03:21] Speaker A: Did you have a give it all up and run away career path? [00:03:27] Speaker B: Not a really serious one, but I always said if I could, I would just start a dog grooming business. I was like, how soothing to just comb pets and dogs and no one would ask me for anything. Yeah, it was my happy. [00:03:47] Speaker A: I've seen my dogs get their nails trimmed and they really are not happy. [00:03:52] Speaker B: That's the thing, right? It sounded good, but yes. When we take our pets to the groomers, I'm like, actually that looks like less fun than I thought it would be. [00:03:59] Speaker A: More stressful than graduate school. [00:04:03] Speaker B: So at the time, it was better than spending midnight with lab equipment. As you're waiting for an experiment to. [00:04:10] Speaker A: Finish cutting things on the count focal. [00:04:14] Speaker B: Oh God, I still have an injury. I still have an injury. I broke a tendon. Like, I popped a tendon. I don't know. I know this is a podcast, but my finger goes the wrong way. And that is from constant scrolling on the focus on the microscope cindy War wounds. [00:04:37] Speaker A: Realize what your turning point was when you realized work related injury was going to be permanent. [00:04:44] Speaker B: Exactly. Although I will say I knew very early on that I was not cut out to be a bench scientist. I love science. I love learning about science and doing science. I do not love the 5000 rats. I did not love the waiting for gels to run. And honestly, I really wanted something where I was contributing to maybe bigger, broader patients. [00:05:15] Speaker C: Right. [00:05:15] Speaker B: It's not like I was doing translational research at the time. And I was very open about this too. I remember my Pi was not too happy about me, but she understood that I was not pursuing a career in academia. And I think she spent the entire six years trying to convince me that it really was better than I thought and I should just stick with it. [00:05:35] Speaker A: Walk in on you one time while you were doing rat experiments, you were just like crying. [00:05:41] Speaker B: Oh my gosh. And that's the sizing a rat to do surgery. [00:05:45] Speaker C: Right. [00:05:45] Speaker B: To put him into the stereotyxic to do brain surgery. I was ablating portion of his brain and he just fell asleep and curled up on my hand, like, trusting me. And I'm like, I am a horrible, horrible person. And it's like 11:00 at night and I just started bawling. And she walks by, she sees me, she's like she takes the rat out of my hand, puts him back in the cage, and it's like, maybe do him tomorrow. Go home. [00:06:14] Speaker A: That's why I got into cells. I was not into animal research at all. But cells just grow and then you can kill them and there's no remorse. [00:06:26] Speaker B: It is better. That's the downside to neuroscience research. [00:06:29] Speaker C: Right. [00:06:29] Speaker B: It's really hard to culture neurons. [00:06:31] Speaker A: It is hard to culture neurons. [00:06:32] Speaker B: True. Yeah. [00:06:34] Speaker A: What was your PhD in? [00:06:36] Speaker B: So, as in neuroscience, specialized in neuroendocrinology. So I was looking at androgen receptors in the cerebral cortex. Very basic research. [00:06:47] Speaker A: Yes. [00:06:48] Speaker B: Fascinating. But very basic research. [00:06:50] Speaker A: Absolutely. So you were turned off by essentially, it seems like, with the methods and just the slow progress of bench research. [00:07:02] Speaker B: Yeah. And again, I think at the end of the day, I think I realized I just was not going to be the person who could spend 20 hours in a lab and laser focused. I wanted a little more kind of bigger picture, change the world. I think all of us in our 20s were like, I'm going to change the world. And I was like, how do I do that? I am not going to be the Nobel Prize winning scientist. But I like learning science, and I love understanding things, so I wanted to stay in science, just not do it myself. [00:07:43] Speaker A: I think there's a reason why they take our pictures on the first day of grad school, because that's when you're so excited, right? Like, I'm going to be the one to cure cancer. I'm going to be the one, too. [00:07:55] Speaker B: And then the reality of, okay, write the grant, spend years and years doing the research. Find out it doesn't work. Write a new grant, spend more years and years of research. And by the way, try to get tenure. Try to get a position. Try to get a lab of your own. You really have to love it, right? [00:08:18] Speaker A: Isn't it true that only I think I read something recently, only 20% of PhD grads actually move on to any sort of tenure track professor position. It could be lower than that, but. [00:08:30] Speaker B: I know it is pretty low. I don't know the actual number, but you're right. And part of it is, I mean, you remember that grad students and postdocs are really cheap labor, but that doesn't mean there's positions for all of them. I know some universities are actually getting better at this, about actually explaining all the things you can do with a PhD where academia is just one piece. [00:08:56] Speaker C: Right? [00:08:57] Speaker B: They explain pharmaceuticals. They explain the healthcare system. They explain, oh, gosh, I work with people who have a PhD and a JD. [00:09:06] Speaker C: Right? [00:09:07] Speaker B: And they're lawyers. They're patent lawyers because they understand the science piece. Right? And I will never regret the education. I will never regret getting the PhD, because, one, it's got me where I am today. But two, it makes you much more versatile because you know how to learn. [00:09:25] Speaker C: Right? [00:09:25] Speaker B: You know how to evaluate science. You know how to be skeptical. And I think it's an unrecognized skill set. Yeah. [00:09:34] Speaker A: Critical thinking. [00:09:35] Speaker B: It is. Everyone's like, oh, yes, PhD, PharmD, MD, all the doctorates. But they are very distinct. [00:09:43] Speaker C: Right. [00:09:44] Speaker B: I think a PhD is more about deep dive, how you learn, which to me translates really well to just understanding how things fit together rather than just saying, this is how things work, and I'm going to execute those things. [00:09:59] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I think that's actually why I barely passed. Gross. Anatomy. [00:10:04] Speaker B: Nothing mechanistic about anatomy. Memorize all those things. I have the same issue with pharmacology. I'm like, oh, gosh, I can't remember all these things. [00:10:12] Speaker A: Memorize all this. Show me how. [00:10:14] Speaker B: I need connections. I need a story. [00:10:17] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:10:18] Speaker B: Really good at pathways, right? This connects to this, and this does this. [00:10:23] Speaker A: So you didn't do a postdoc, right? You went straight to industry? [00:10:26] Speaker B: I did not, actually. I actually joined industry on the promise of defending my dissertation. So I defended my dissertation about five months after I joined Takeda. [00:10:40] Speaker A: Wow. Okay. So how did you find this job? So you're finishing up, you're writing your dissertation. How did you get that interview? [00:10:51] Speaker B: At some point, I think it's right place, right time. I was literally like, I don't want to be in academia. And my Pi was not helpful. She did not want me to go to the industry route. So she was like, you're on your own. And so I started looking around. [00:11:12] Speaker C: Right? [00:11:12] Speaker B: And it was a posting, right. And science postings right on, indeed. Or any of these sites. And it was for a medical writer, right. Write up people's research. And all I could think is like, oh, I can write my own research. I can certainly write someone else's. And it's entry level, right? It's like, all right, I can do I And you'll laugh at this, because this is actually I tell people this, and they're like, you're not serious. I'm like, kind of half serious. So when I went to interview at Keda, and I'd interviewed at a couple places as well, right? Maybe not the best fits, but I interviewed Takeda, which was in Chicago, right, where went to grad school, where you were living. It's a great local. And I was meeting with everyone, and the other medical writer on the team who was interviewing me was wearing the exact same shirt. Again. Cheap Cole special. Right? It was like, the one nice shirt I bought at Kohl's, and it was like, the exact same shirt, same color, everything. And so I did, I spent, like, ten minutes talking to the hiring manager about, wow, it must be fate because you're wearing the same shirt as my current medical writer. And yes, obviously we had a good conversation about writing and how to do this stuff, but to this day, I'm like, I think she hired me because of the shirt. [00:12:45] Speaker A: Interesting. That's funny. [00:12:50] Speaker B: Part of it is fate, I think. Part of it is, yeah. And this is one thing, when I look at people's CVS now, I think the one thing is being able to translate the skills you get in grad school or in the lab into something that will be useful for the company you're working at. So I could talk about my research, I could talk about all this stuff. But the one thing I kept pointing out is I can synthesize, I collaborate with other people, we write together. I'm really good at understanding the language, how to communicate right. Understanding what they're looking for, and finding those skills in my CV, even if I'd never actually done the job before. So that's something I look for now. And I tell people all the time, they're like, I've never done this job. I'm like, doesn't matter. What have you done that translates? And he's using the same skill set. Highlight that right. Use the keywords that are in the job description. You can translate skills across all different experiences. [00:13:59] Speaker A: I think that's so important because I was recently talking to a table of students at a conference that I was at and one of the students asked me afterwards about, she said, well, I've been president of my grad school society or I've been a committee member on these small local things. And she said Is that something that I should put on my resume? And I said, well, yes, absolutely. But secondly, you can spin that into these soft skills that apply to business. You've led teams, you've managed budgets, you've given presentations, you've written minutes. There are soft skills that you acquire. So you're absolutely right. I mean, you could focus on the technical stuff that you've done at the bench, but more importantly, you're able to communicate those results. You're able to pinpoint issues, you're able to write papers. And sometimes even getting your committee together required an act of God. So, I mean, there's plenty of skills. [00:15:01] Speaker B: That we all skills, definitely. Yeah. It's something I think we forget, right? Because we anchor on I haven't done that job before, or I don't know how to do that job. But every job requires very specific skills and competencies. Like you said, soft skills. [00:15:23] Speaker C: Right. [00:15:24] Speaker B: And that is what everyone is looking for. [00:15:26] Speaker C: Right? [00:15:26] Speaker B: I could find 100 people who know how to do science or they're a pharmacist or a doctor and they're like, I can do this. I'm like, but do you understand how to communicate that? Do you understand how to lead people? Those are things that are hard to teach and so the more you can show you've done them in whatever job you have. And honestly, being a grad student requires a lot of soft skills as opposed to, I think you get a PhD. [00:15:58] Speaker A: In Microsoft Word just for writing a dissertation. Oh my God. So how does one practice, like practice communicating science, especially in grad school where a lot of times they want to focus specifically on I did these PCR reactions and I controlled with these things. I mean, it's less about the story that you're telling, it's more about the individual trees rather than the forest, so to speak. [00:16:25] Speaker B: How do you think? And that's a hard one. And honestly, I think as I've progressed in my career, I've gotten better at that because when you first start, you do want to give all the details. You want to set it up, you want to take a half an hour to explain your methods and then how you got to the end and then a big reveal. And unfortunately, most executives have stopped listening after the first 5 seconds. So it's really hard. You almost have to flip that narrative. [00:16:54] Speaker C: Right. [00:16:55] Speaker B: What is the point what are the top three things that you want to make sure the person in front of you understands and then build backwards? Because then people will ask questions. [00:17:04] Speaker C: Right. [00:17:04] Speaker B: You can provide as much evidence as you want. But it was one of the things I realized early in my career, especially being in I'm obviously on the medical side, and I have been for my career. When you're talking, particularly with your commercial colleagues, who maybe don't have that science background, and I could pinpoint the exact second they stopped listening to me, because you see the glaze go over their eyes and you're like, oh, crap. I have ventured into the sciency realm. [00:17:35] Speaker A: Pull back, go a little higher level. [00:17:39] Speaker B: Because at the end of the day, it's all about understanding whoever is in front of you. What they need yes. And not what you want to convey. [00:17:48] Speaker A: I think that's great. [00:17:49] Speaker B: Making it relevant, that's great. [00:17:50] Speaker A: And especially maybe you've noticed this too, but giving lectures remotely makes that incredibly difficult, either when you're communicating to people in commercial or you're communicating to doctors and maybe even talking a little bit about, say, a phosphorylation event is actually a key point in your presentation. You have to talk about it, but you don't see how many people are glazing over and how many people are actually multitasking. Oh, my gosh, they're all multitasking. Sure. But I think that's a really good point. Understanding body language is, especially in medical affairs, is so important. If you can sense someone starting to back away from you, that's your cue either to wrap it up or let's take a step back in terms. [00:18:39] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah, again, it's that kind of and I go back my background, obviously, in science, but also in psychology right. Which is in behavior and understanding people. [00:18:55] Speaker C: You're right. [00:18:55] Speaker B: It's the body language. It's the subtle eyes. A bunch of people are starting to try and say something because they're like, okay, I need to stop this now. You're going too far. But it is a skill. But it's something, I think, that as a scientist, you have to deliberately say, I need to think about what I want to convey first before you go into that presentation or you go into that room. Because if you just start talking, you get excited. [00:19:30] Speaker C: Right. [00:19:31] Speaker B: And sometimes people aren't coming with you because maybe they don't have the background you do. Sometimes you get the I didn't understand the word you said because it was really highly technical and you didn't explain it. Because we forget we live in a world of jargon. [00:19:49] Speaker A: True. That's so true. I think, in general, that's a good take home point, regardless of where you're coming in, if it's a technical presentation or if it's just a negotiation, these are my top three things that I want to convey. And you stick to those three bullet points. I think that's great. [00:20:08] Speaker B: It is. And I always start with it and then if you have time to explain, and then you end with it. [00:20:14] Speaker C: Right. [00:20:15] Speaker B: So you were sure that they got the things you wanted them to understand or the things they need to make a decision. Perfect. If you're asking for endorsement or something, yeah, makes sense. [00:20:26] Speaker A: So you start as a medical writer. What's it like writing about other people's research? [00:20:36] Speaker B: It was a little bit of a shift, and I will say I benefited from a manager and my medical director at the time who really were patient in explaining how business works and how pharmaceutical company works versus academia. Because if you're writing your own stuff, you tend to be like, all right, I can deep dive in this. I can figure this out, and I'm going to write it. Really what I had to learn was actually how to have a conversation with the authors, how to have a conversation with the Pi of the study and understand what their main points were, what they wanted to convey, and then help them with the background to get there. And again, it's all about flow and making sure you had the appropriate evidence, obviously, in the paper. But it is a little different when you're basically representing a committee, which is the authors, versus being one of those authors and having a vote. As a medical writer, you don't get a vote. [00:21:39] Speaker A: And the biggest stakeholder of all, which is your company and the head of your company. So what do they want to convey as well? [00:21:49] Speaker B: Exactly. And that comes in, I mean, when you talk about the writing, right? You're writing up an individual study, but really it's that big picture. And as I moved up in my career, I found that I really liked the more strategic communication plan. When you write manuscripts, we're doing lots of studies, right? We're doing preclinical studies, we're doing clinical studies, we're doing real world studies and really saying, okay, what is the goal? What do we want to communicate? And then what studies will actually provide the evidence to be able to legitimately say that? [00:22:22] Speaker C: Right. [00:22:22] Speaker B: How do we want to what audience we want to get to? As I moved up, I like writing the research, but I found that I really liked how it all connects together and then how it connects to all the other things that medical affairs does. Because a lot of people don't understand what medical affairs and pharma is. They're like, okay, sales, no. R and D, no kind of sits in the middle. And it's a lot of communication. It's a lot of providing more real world evidence. Evidence for providers. [00:22:59] Speaker C: Right. [00:23:00] Speaker B: The doctors, increasingly, the nurses and the payers. Everybody who has a stake in this, in the patients. [00:23:10] Speaker C: Right. [00:23:10] Speaker B: Everyone has to understand the information so they can appropriately use the product we're selling. [00:23:16] Speaker C: Right. [00:23:17] Speaker B: The goal is not to get everyone to use the product. It's to make sure the most appropriate people get it. Who need it. [00:23:23] Speaker A: I completely agree. And in fact, I remember thinking I was talking to somebody at one point and he said something to the effect of you need to have maybe half a dozen different versions of this presentation depending on who your audience is. And in my world, it'd be, is it a glaucoma specialist, is it a general ophthalmologist, is it an optometrist, is it a PhD, is it a pharmacist, is it someone in market access? And each person is going to have a different background, a different fundamental understanding, but then also they're going to have a different goal in mind, whether it's making it more affordable, whether it's how well does it treat the disease, how comfortable is it for the patient, how difficult is it to access, how is it made? Everyone's going to have different goals and different ideas in mind of what they want to hear. So I think that goes back to what we originally talked about in terms of those soft skills. If you understand your audience ahead of. [00:24:21] Speaker B: Time, it's all about pre planning, right. You have to understand what the person in front of you wants and what is their goal, right. What do they need to know to make whatever decision they need to make? Or they just need education, right? Or they have a lot of questions. I think sometimes we're all very smart people. We're all very excited about our positions, our jobs, our programs, and we want to convey everything. But nobody likes to be lectured. They like to be listened to first. [00:24:59] Speaker A: True. And I think I've been told more than once, definitely more than once, I had no clue what you were saying, but I like the way you said it. Exactly. You're so excited. [00:25:10] Speaker B: You're obviously very excited about this. I'm not quite sure what you were talking about. I just lost you. [00:25:17] Speaker C: Sorry. [00:25:18] Speaker A: Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. That's something to keep in mind as. [00:25:23] Speaker B: You'Re. [00:25:25] Speaker A: Now, unlike our previous guests, especially our previous guest, Julie Tesla, who has jumped from a couple of different positions between academics and industry and back. You started at Decada and you stayed at Decada. [00:25:39] Speaker B: I did. And the reason I stay is know, obviously, I started as a medical writer. [00:25:48] Speaker C: Right. [00:25:49] Speaker B: I am currently the head of our neuroscience and vaccines franchise for the US medical Team. And so Takeda has given me a lot of opportunities to grow, to learn, to explore other things. I also will say that everyone gets very excited about the job or the company. I find it's all about the people you work with and the culture of the company you're at. I really do want to be at a company that I feel values me, values my expertise, values patience, and is really taking a hard look at where we fit in the bigger ecosystem. So that's why I stay at the company one, because I feel I can grow here and I have and two, I really like the culture of the company and the people I work with who are amazing. So any of them who are listening, you're all amazing. [00:26:56] Speaker A: That's wonderful. So then I guess, how does one go from medical writer to veep? [00:27:04] Speaker B: Well, to be fair, it's been a long time, so I have been there a while. I think part of it is twelve or 13 years. 17 years. [00:27:15] Speaker A: 17 years. Okay. [00:27:17] Speaker B: And I have been in this role for about three. [00:27:20] Speaker A: Okay. [00:27:22] Speaker B: And again, I think part of it is understanding what you want. I think that's really hard. [00:27:30] Speaker C: Right. [00:27:30] Speaker B: And it's not about the title. [00:27:31] Speaker C: Right. [00:27:32] Speaker B: I get a lot of people who says, I want to be a VP, I want to be a CEO. I'm like that's. [00:27:36] Speaker C: Great. [00:27:37] Speaker B: But why? And what do you like about it? I think it's really understanding what you like and then making deliberate choices when they show up and talking to people. [00:27:48] Speaker C: Right. [00:27:48] Speaker B: Letting people know you are interested in other things, taking developmental opportunities. I also will make a huge shout out to finding a really good mentor, also a really good sponsor. So I don't know if people are aware of the difference. [00:28:12] Speaker C: Right. [00:28:12] Speaker A: But explain the difference. [00:28:14] Speaker B: So a mentor is someone who you can bounce ideas off of, who can help shape you, who really can say, let's think through this. What could you potentially do for this? It's awesome. [00:28:25] Speaker C: Right? [00:28:25] Speaker B: Everyone needs a mentor and you get something back. [00:28:29] Speaker C: Right. [00:28:29] Speaker B: It's a two way street. A sponsor is really more of a person at a higher level who can champion you. [00:28:37] Speaker C: Right. [00:28:37] Speaker B: When they're in a conversation and someone is saying, you know what? We really are looking for someone like this, and they're like, hey, I know someone who can do that, and I think she'd be really interested. Do you want to talk to her? [00:28:50] Speaker C: Right. [00:28:50] Speaker B: It's almost like it doesn't have to be at your company. Right. All of the networking events, people in Pharma, it sounds like a big world, but it's not. It's very insular. People move around companies all the time. So it's someone who can just say, I know someone and I can get you in touch with them, or hey, that would be great. You should talk to so and so. It's good to have both. And I think part of it is I benefited from lots of good mentors over the years, but also a really good sponsor who always said, you know what? Which I think and Cindy, I'm sure you've heard this as, right? Women tend to not go for a job until they're absolutely sure they can do it and be excellent at it. And my sponsor, who complete transparency, he was a male, right? He was a physician who would look at me and say, I think you can do this. [00:29:51] Speaker A: I'm like, I'm not sure. [00:29:52] Speaker B: And he's like, Shut up. I know you can. He's like, you don't have to be perfect. You've got the skills. You can grow in the role, and I know you can do it, so just do it. [00:30:01] Speaker A: Okay. So you hear that, listeners? You can just do it. You've got the skills, you can do it. Do it. [00:30:08] Speaker B: It's all about, like I said, leveraging the skills. It's not about, I know how to do that job. I see that's. Good, because the one thing I look for when I'm hiring people is not a, I've done this job for ten years and I can do it in my sleep. It's a, I would love to understand how you do this job and how I can contribute to it, how I can make it better. I'm really interested. I am always looking for someone who comes at it with a learning growth mindset. [00:30:40] Speaker C: Right. [00:30:41] Speaker B: I want to take this to the next step, and I want to work with you to do so, because I always say, I prefer to train someone then untrained someone. [00:30:51] Speaker A: Oh, I like that. [00:30:55] Speaker B: People are like, I've done it for ten years, I can always do it that way. But the pace of our industry is moving so fast that we are changing constantly, and I need someone who can change with me and who will not say, I can't do it that way. [00:31:08] Speaker A: Yeah, there's been a lot of books about growth mindset recently. [00:31:13] Speaker B: I know. I have a couple on my bedside table. I've got a whole bookshelf behind me over here of all the books. I have children, so that's a big thing in the schools too. [00:31:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, I bet. Because I've realized that I think in academics, it seems like there is some growth mindset in there, but a lot of it is you're just very used to doors being shut in your face in different ways, and that's kind of what guides you. This experiment didn't work, so I got to pivot to something else. That didn't work, so I got to pivot to something else. Or we don't have that equipment. We don't have that capability. We can't do that animal model. We don't have a grant to support that. So it seems like to me, it seems like growth mindset has to come from a place of almost like abundance. And I feel like there's a lot of scarcity in academics, especially when you're a student. [00:32:09] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:32:10] Speaker B: And it's true. [00:32:12] Speaker C: Right. [00:32:12] Speaker B: It makes it harder. But I also think you can totally say, all right, well, I don't have that, but how can I get to that goal with what I've got now? Or how can I flag this as saying, you know what, anytime we got some extra funds in here, this is what I want to prioritize, because this is what is going to move the needle. To me, it's just all about thinking, how do I do this better? For complete transparency, I hate the term best practice because it assumes we've figured it out. And we found the best practice. I like the what's that baby step to make it better and try that next step. And if it doesn't work, oh, well, we learned something. Pivot. Try something else. Because we should always be looking at how to make it better, how to make it more efficient. Because you're right. Yes. Pharma has probably more resources than a lot of academic institutions, but not infinite. We spend a lot of money on research and development, but I don't sit in research and development. [00:33:24] Speaker A: Yeah, that's true. [00:33:27] Speaker B: So maybe I just revealed a little. [00:33:28] Speaker A: Bit more about my personal mindset than mine. Dang it. [00:33:33] Speaker B: I don't have yes. My team is always like, I would love to do this, and I feel so bad. I'm like, oh, they don't have the funds to do that. How could you do it cheaper? [00:33:43] Speaker A: Right. [00:33:43] Speaker B: Or maybe you could leverage another team who's doing that and do it together. [00:33:49] Speaker A: Yeah. I love that. [00:33:51] Speaker B: It's all about creativity, I think. [00:33:54] Speaker A: So then these are things that you kind of learned along the way. So then, I guess how did you make the jump from publications director, then medical writer, publications director, and then upwards? You left the writing behind and you started working more on strategy. [00:34:12] Speaker C: It is. [00:34:13] Speaker B: And I think that comes down to kind of how, at least in most of the companies well, at Takeda and then most of the companies I know other people who work in it's how medical affairs is really structured. So you have the kind of strategy leads the therapeutic area, leads the people who are saying, all right, here's where we need to be. And it's lined up with all of the rest of the company. It's a bigger, broader strategy. And then you have the functional expertise. [00:34:43] Speaker C: Right. [00:34:44] Speaker B: You have the publications people, the education people, the scientific communication teams, MSLs, right. Field Medical. You've got all these functional groups. And there's more. I'm not naming them. All right, no one needs a lecture on medical affairs, but I think part of it is I was obviously in that functional realm, right. I was excellent at publications publication strategy. I really liked it. But at some point, you have to make a choice. Do you want to be a functional expert? Because that takes you farther away from the science into more of what does good publication planning look like? [00:35:23] Speaker C: Right. [00:35:24] Speaker B: How do you understand the journals and the congresses and how everything fits together versus, do I want to stay on this more science side and really go up into medical strategy? And so it was a choice. [00:35:42] Speaker C: Right. [00:35:43] Speaker B: I had to stop and think, what do I really want? And kind of comes back to what I was saying earlier. [00:35:47] Speaker C: Right. [00:35:48] Speaker B: Not a title, but a skill. What do I like? And when I sat down, I realized, I like the strategy. I like the big picture. I like putting the jigsaw puzzle together so that everything fits together perfectly, and it gets to the whole and so I deliberately made a choice to jump onto the other side. And so I was in a global role in publications, and then I moved to the US. Medical Organization. I'm not sure the titles are all off now, but really more of a scientific strategy, almost like strategic operations type role. And so I moved over that, over to that side so I could really work with our medical directors and figure out kind of how we shape this strategy. And then I got to work with my publications colleagues right. And work with my other colleagues. And so then I moved up in that from that position, I moved up, gained more product expertise. [00:36:53] Speaker C: Right. [00:36:54] Speaker B: It's all about growth. [00:36:55] Speaker C: Right. [00:36:56] Speaker B: You start with one program, then you start with the portfolio, multiple products, until I was really in a position when the previous VP of the neuroscience field left. And really, he was like, you know what? You could totally do this role. And I was like, you know what? I could. Right. Let me talk to your boss who now will be hiring the role and make my case. [00:37:23] Speaker C: Right. [00:37:24] Speaker B: I think a lot of it is you sometimes have to convince people they can do it. I will say I took a little bit of a risk because it's a little bit untraditional. So this VP role is typically a medical doctor, typically as an MD. And so there was a little bit of a back and forth. [00:37:44] Speaker A: Are we sure? [00:37:45] Speaker B: So I actually did the role as an interim for six months with no guarantee that I would be named the permanent person. It was almost like a trial period to see if I could do it. So I had six months to prove that I could do this role. And at that point, it's a choice. I'm like, if I don't get it, I'm not moving back to my old role. That feels, OD, I'm going to have to move on and find something else to do. And so the same time I was doing the interim role, I was interviewing at other companies, actually. Oh, wow. [00:38:17] Speaker A: Okay. [00:38:18] Speaker B: To talk about other positions. Just keep your options open. Right. Never put all your things in one side. [00:38:25] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:38:26] Speaker B: And then, yeah, I obviously proved I could do it, so they gave me the role permanently. [00:38:33] Speaker A: Okay, so that sounds incredibly stressful, especially. [00:38:37] Speaker B: Hence the value of a good mentor who you can completely freak out with and be like, oh, my God, am I making the worst choice ever? Should I insist that they make me permanent or else they're not going to. [00:38:46] Speaker A: Give it to me? [00:38:47] Speaker B: Should I just leave? [00:38:48] Speaker A: Wow. [00:38:49] Speaker B: Should I stay in the role I'm in now? [00:38:51] Speaker A: Yeah, because you've got your husband, you got your two kids, you moved from Chicago to Massachusetts. A lot of things got turned around for you guys as a result of this role. That sounds terrifying. [00:39:07] Speaker B: Little bit terrifying. I think sometimes you just have to take a chance, right? Nothing is ever guaranteed, and you really just have to believe that you can do it. [00:39:19] Speaker C: Right? [00:39:19] Speaker B: And that was probably the best thing. My mentor was like, you know what? You obviously want this. You're talking yourself into it, but you're scared. I get it. You're scared, but do you want it? Yes, I do want it. Then go for it, right? [00:39:33] Speaker C: Love it. [00:39:34] Speaker B: Figure out what happens if it doesn't work out. But you're confident you can prove you can do this. Show the company you can. [00:39:41] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow, that's amazing. [00:39:43] Speaker B: So it's a lot of, I think, just sheer power of like, I want this so bad and I can prove I can do it. And I think sometimes and I've talked to other female employees and women, and sometimes I think we're a little too passive in waiting for someone to give us something. True. I did have one of the actually, my good friends on the commercial side, we were talking about it, and he's like, nobody's ever going to know what you want unless you tell them. I'm like you're right. You shouldn't wait for someone to give you something if you want it. Figure out what skills you need to do that role. Ask people if I can shadow you, can I work on a developmental project? And then when the opportunity is like, here's what I did to get this right here's, I proved I can do this. Give me a chance. [00:40:46] Speaker C: Wow. [00:40:47] Speaker B: I'm inspired. I will say one of the benefits, too, of being at Takeda for a long time is I had a really good track record. [00:40:57] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense. So you have a PhD in neuroscience. Your whole life has been neuroscience, and now here come vaccines. How did you even manage that? [00:41:15] Speaker B: That one was interesting, and let me preface this with a lot of times in pharma, it's here's our therapeutic areas. But, oh, here is an opportunity, and we don't know where to put it. So who has bandwidth? So I will say before actually several years ago, when I was in that more scientific strategy operations role, we were neuroscience and general medicine. I also had a little bit of gout. I did a little bit of diabetes. [00:41:47] Speaker A: Not you personally, topic wise. [00:41:49] Speaker B: Okay, not me personally. My programs were around and chronic constipation, which sounds just as exciting as it is. [00:41:59] Speaker A: That's amazing. [00:42:00] Speaker B: Yeah, it's very exciting. So I think it's a little sometimes opportunistic. So, yes, I'm asked a lot why neuroscience and vaccines? And one of it's just you had bandwidth and so they trusted you could grow a program. I think the other one is, again, we anchor on I know how to do this therapeutic. [00:42:27] Speaker C: Right? [00:42:27] Speaker B: We get our PhDs in very specific realms. Like, I am an expert in one little thing, and that's what I said in the beginning. Don't discount the fact that our training allows us to learn and understand science. And the people I find to be the most successful are the ones who are willing to go outside of their specialty realm and say, I can totally learn that. [00:42:51] Speaker C: Right. [00:42:52] Speaker B: I don't have to be the biggest expert in this space, but I need to hire people who are the biggest experts in this space. [00:42:59] Speaker A: Yeah, one of my mentors has started a couple of different companies in her tenure. And when I've asked her about that, she said the exact same thing. She said, I don't need to know all of this. I don't know about regulatory, I don't know about toxicology, but I know people who do. And so I ask them, or I bring them in, I bring them as consultants. I pay them to advise me on these things. And I think that's something that's at least underappreciated. Because again, going back to the academic mindset, we always feel like we have to know the answers. It's so hard when someone asks you a question in the seminar and you're like you don't want to say, I don't know. You have to say, that's a great question. Drag it out. Drag it out until you come up. [00:43:51] Speaker B: With that's a hard skill. And that's the one thing as I've gone up in leadership is the thing I had to let go of is being the expert on everything because I'm not supposed to. [00:44:07] Speaker C: Right? [00:44:08] Speaker B: I can't physically be the expert in all of my programs. I need to be able to rely on my people. I need to be able to hire people who bring that to me. I need to be able to have that consultant who I can just call and ask. And that's, I think something we don't focus enough on is deliberate. You need to deliberately let that go and rely on the expertise of someone else. Because in my role, it's all about how do I get the best out of my people? How do I make sure the whole franchise is successful? How do I connect with my colleagues in R and D and commercial and market access? And how do I get rid of barriers for my people because I'm not actually doing their jobs, right? They're doing their jobs. But it's a hard thing for a scientist to say, I don't know. [00:45:05] Speaker A: Yeah, wow, that's really interesting. [00:45:07] Speaker B: I don't really thought about that. [00:45:09] Speaker A: So then as you're interviewing so I guess let me ask you. [00:45:16] Speaker B: What kind. [00:45:16] Speaker A: Of candidates do you look for? Or when you are looking for, say, more junior people? Do you look for postdoc experience? [00:45:24] Speaker B: Now? [00:45:24] Speaker A: Do you look for topic expertise or those soft skills? You did mention that you look for their ability to apply the things that they've learned to your strategic initiatives. But I guess if someone wanted to get your attention as a new applicant, what else kind of grabs your attention? [00:45:45] Speaker B: I think in addition to that kind of learning mindset, where you're really looking at how do I use the skills I've gained in this role? The other thing I think, especially if you're coming in at a more junior level or more entry level into Pharma is have you put the effort into learning what this role really is? It's something I wish I had probably done more when I was doing it, that no one explained these things to me. What is a medical writer? What is an MSL? What is their job? [00:46:16] Speaker C: Right. [00:46:17] Speaker B: I've got people who are yeah, I've been in academia. I'm a postdoc. But you know what, I've talked to a couple of people. There's MSL organizations, there's medical affairs organizations where you can go, and there's tons of stuff online about what does an MSL do, what does a medical information person do? All these roles that they have in Pharma, that's what I look for, someone who knows what they want and understands how their skills will fit in. Not someone who says, I want out of academia. And this looked good. [00:46:50] Speaker C: True. [00:46:51] Speaker B: Because, again, you want to see the effort behind it. And I'm going to be completely honest, it's probably harder now than it used to be because we do outsource a lot of those type of roles just because of the nature of everything shifts so quickly. So a lot of people we hire actually have some experience at vendors. [00:47:11] Speaker C: Right. [00:47:12] Speaker B: They've worked as a contractor for a contract research association or a medical communications firm. And so they get some skills that way. But I will say that the two big things I look for are just that passion to learn and grow and show me that your learning curve will be pretty quick because you're shown you can do it. And two, just really understanding what you're getting into, because I always look for someone who wants to go to something rather than get away from something. [00:47:50] Speaker A: That's probably a really good approach. [00:47:54] Speaker B: If you can tell me why you're excited about this job, that goes a long way for sure. Versus you spend 20 minutes complaining about your current job. Oh, jeez. [00:48:02] Speaker A: Yeah, that's almost like a first date, right? If they spend the first half of the date talking about their ex, then they're probably not the person for you. That's one of those soft skills, self awareness. Yes. There you go. Going back to medical affairs, I actually compare it to dating kind of a lot because it is relationship building, understanding body language, and when to figure out that they're really just not interested in talking to you, and you probably should stop talking to them at conferences. Or this person's, maybe a little bit. You're punching above your weight class. Maybe don't do that so much. I think that's important. [00:48:48] Speaker B: It is. I never really thought about it that way, but you're right. It's all so I'm going to preface this with this is my current, you know, take it for what it is. I've been really getting into the behavioral economics lately. Okay, so I don't know. The University of Chicago has a huge behavioral economics center, and actually one of their researchers won the Nobel Prize in 2017 for behavioral economics. And it's all about how we make decisions, how we think. And I apply this all the time to leadership qualities, to medical affairs. [00:49:27] Speaker C: Right. [00:49:28] Speaker B: If you know what motivates people and you know how our brains work, because obviously I'm a neuroscientist, right? This is all about the brain works and drives behavior. But if you understand how the brain works and what kind of information will push people in one direction versus another or how their body language looks, they're obviously listening or they're not. There's a whole field of thought about how you actually take what our brains are designed to do. All the little shortcuts, over evolution has designed us to keep us alive. And how you can use that. And my husband calls it manipulation. I call it influence. [00:50:11] Speaker A: Do you use it on him? [00:50:13] Speaker B: I swear I do not use it on him. [00:50:17] Speaker A: He's not in the room, is he? [00:50:19] Speaker B: No, he's not in the room. But no, it's all about because in my organization, in a lot of organizations, you work with a lot of people that you have no direct authority over, but you need to get them to do basically what you want, right. What you think is the way to go forward. And it doesn't work to just tell people to do it. You have to work with them and get them to think, this was my great idea, and I would love to do this. Yes, thank you. That's perfect. I approve, but yeah, so that's my current obsession. Behavioral economics. [00:50:54] Speaker A: I love that. Actually, my mentor would call that planting the seed. He was very good at that too. He would get very good at mentioning it in passing a couple of times. And then one day we would walk into his office and be like, I had this amazing idea. He'd be like, you don't say. That is an amazing idea. [00:51:19] Speaker B: Thank you so much for coming up with that. [00:51:20] Speaker A: Yes, definitely do that. [00:51:22] Speaker B: Well done. [00:51:23] Speaker A: It wasn't until later, I was like, how dare you? [00:51:29] Speaker B: It does called influencing, Cindy. It's much nicer word. It is much nicer word. [00:51:37] Speaker A: So now a lot of people, especially when they're young, they worry about balancing family and work. And certainly we see postdocs, female postdocs trying to make a decision. Do they want a career? Do they want a family? In some ways. How does that influence your decision? And how are you able to balance? Because you and Jay have been married for a long time. [00:52:06] Speaker B: Yeah, 23 years. [00:52:08] Speaker A: Yeah, gosh. [00:52:11] Speaker B: Yeah, we got married very young. I am barely over my 23. Yeah. You look like babies in your wedding photo. Exactly. [00:52:21] Speaker A: We were babies, obviously, but early. [00:52:24] Speaker B: So young. Yeah. I'll be honest, it's very hard, especially and you do have to make that choice. [00:52:36] Speaker C: Right. [00:52:37] Speaker B: How are you going? I find if you go in with your eyes open, it's better. You need to figure out what are the goals, you and your the. So Jason, my husband, obviously he also has a PhD in neuroscience, and having two academics in one household is really hard. [00:52:58] Speaker C: Right. [00:52:58] Speaker B: Because you have to go where the science leads. And then I got a job at Cicada, which was then not movable. And so at some point, you make that decision, okay, who are we all in on and who are we going to say is the primary career? [00:53:16] Speaker C: Right. [00:53:17] Speaker B: And it doesn't have to be the one that makes more money or the one that it's really about. You have to decide that for yourself in your family unit. And so we decided we are all in on my career because I loved it. I still love it. It's doing well. He's got his own passions and he's pursued them. [00:53:40] Speaker C: Right. [00:53:42] Speaker B: But the other thing is, you do have to understand that I work a lot of hours and I travel a lot. And so we have cobbled together. When our boys were little, we had a full time nanny because we needed someone who could do all the scheduling shifts. And my boys are years apart, so trying to do school and daycare and the different schedules, that's not possible. And a lot of people I work with either have full time help or they live by their families so grandma can help out or one spouse stays home. [00:54:20] Speaker C: Right. [00:54:21] Speaker B: Jason, he went back to school. He got his PA degree, so he's a physician assistant, which is a much more flexible job. [00:54:28] Speaker C: Right. [00:54:29] Speaker B: And so he's take time off to be with our boys. Those are just trade offs you have to make. And I know people who both spouses work. [00:54:41] Speaker C: Right. [00:54:41] Speaker B: And they've got very complicated childcare arrangements. But as long as you go into it knowing what you are doing, you just have to balance it. And people always talk about work life balance, and it's not really like one or the other. It's more work life integration. [00:55:00] Speaker C: Right. [00:55:01] Speaker B: Especially in this new hybrid environment. [00:55:03] Speaker C: Right. [00:55:04] Speaker B: I can take a call at 08:00 at night after dinner. [00:55:08] Speaker C: Right. [00:55:08] Speaker B: Or I was telling you before we got on this call, I took my youngest to play basketball at the gym for a couple of hours in the afternoon because I didn't have any meetings. And then I got back on my computer when I got home. So it's all about figuring out how you make your job fit in your life, but also being very honest with your spouse and your kids, or if you don't want kids. [00:55:33] Speaker C: Right. [00:55:34] Speaker B: That's also a very valid choice. Or you want to take some time off. That's the one thing I'm like. Dang it. I wish I had my kids too early because now we have amazing maternity and paternity leaves that I did not get to take advantage of. I'm like every time I turn around, someone's out for six months. [00:55:57] Speaker A: Do you see people who take time off to spend time with their kids when they're young and then try to get back into industry? [00:56:06] Speaker B: I've seen people who come in and out, but more so. I see people take different jobs, so it's not like they leave industry, but maybe they take a field medical job, which is a little more set your own schedule, right. Where you set up your meetings, and as long as you meet with your thought leaders, you're good. [00:56:24] Speaker C: Right. [00:56:25] Speaker B: And then maybe once their kids are older, then they come back into a home office role where it's a little more like, I got to be there for these calls. Or you see people go back and forth to vendors right. Or contract work where I'm going to set my own schedule. So they're not leaving the workforce, but they're shifting their jobs to accommodate in different phases of life. [00:56:48] Speaker A: Makes sense. Yeah. When you were talking about work life balance, I remember someone saying to me that it's not common to have work life balance at the same time. It's more over the bigger picture because you're always going to be all in on something for a long period of time and then maybe you take a little time off and then all in on something, and then you take some time off and it's more like waxing and waning rather than a real 50 50. Day to day, week to week, month to month. And certainly when I was field medical, I would usually take one week. I would call it like my home office week, my administrative week, where I would do all of my expense reports and I would plan my travel for the next month and answer all those emails that have been piling up and return calls, et cetera. But it was also my chance to be home with my then fiance and we could go out for dinner. And like you said, if I don't have calls in the know we lived in Oregon, let's go for a could, we could do things together while because the rest of the time I was traveling three, four days a week. And so it's difficult. And I think you're right there's like the whole process of change management. Right. You set expectations and say, this is what's going to happen. This is why it's going to happen. [00:58:12] Speaker B: Exactly. It's all about just moving forward. [00:58:17] Speaker C: Right. [00:58:18] Speaker B: I always say things will happen. Things always happen. Unexpected things. Right. A program fails in clinical development. Oops, no, we don't have that product. Right. Or personally like, oh my gosh, the housing cris, or somebody is sick. Things always happen. I think as long as you are very deliberate about, okay, how am I going to deal with this. How am I going to move forward and still maintain that kind of long term goal? [00:58:51] Speaker C: Right. [00:58:51] Speaker B: Maybe it's delayed or maybe I need to shift for a couple of years. I think when my boys were really young, like I said, when I was in publications, I was in a global role, just flying to Europe all the time and time zones, like everyone's on different time zones. And it was really hard with really little kids. So part of the reason why I was looking at the US team was because it's the US. And travel is shorter and the hours are very much more during the day. I didn't have to wake up at two in the morning to get on a call with Japan. So it's again, making those choices and understanding that it's right for me in the moment. Sometimes you have to prioritize your family, sometimes you have to prioritize your job. [00:59:36] Speaker C: Sure. [00:59:37] Speaker A: So then I guess with that in mind, your boys are getting older and. [00:59:42] Speaker B: You guys have your remind me, Cindy. Don't remind me. [00:59:47] Speaker A: You look the same, though. You look amazing. [00:59:49] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:59:51] Speaker A: The kids get older, but we somehow don't. [00:59:54] Speaker B: It's kind of we stop aging at 30. Yeah, right. [00:59:56] Speaker A: Absolutely. Isn't that what your mentor used to say? She celebrated 28 every year. [01:00:01] Speaker B: Yes. [01:00:04] Speaker A: My sister recently turned 25 times two. There we go. Acknowledge. No, 25 times two. That's fine. [01:00:13] Speaker B: It's just a number. [01:00:15] Speaker A: Exactly. [01:00:16] Speaker B: Sorry. [01:00:18] Speaker A: No, that's okay. So I guess what's next for you? What comes next, do you think? [01:00:24] Speaker B: Oh gosh, that is the million dollar question. I think right now I am still having fun and learning new things every day. We've got an amazing pipeline on our neuroscience side and I am really excited to help grow that and build out a bigger, broader portfolio for the company. Some things that are truly identifying, like patient need. [01:00:50] Speaker C: Right. [01:00:50] Speaker B: And so I'm really excited about that. I think to me, when I look at the future, when you stop learning new things every day, my whole goal is just not to be bored. [01:01:02] Speaker C: Right. [01:01:02] Speaker B: I want to make sure I'm making a difference and I'm excited and I'm learning new stuff. I think at some point, once my boys maybe are in the way, way future, cindy way future in college and out of the house, I don't know, it might be fun to go to maybe a smaller company where it's a little more drive, something really innovative because you're all in on it, right? Because the security is not as important at that point. There's benefits from big pharma and small startups. We were talking about that before we got on the call. But for good or bad, but for right now, I'm happy where I am. I've got a great team of people and I can see the future of neuroscience. My goal is just to really drive this forward. And I'm sure you too, right this is like the era of neuroscience. There's some amazing developments, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, we need to capitalize on all of these, fix some of these really intractable diseases. [01:02:13] Speaker A: Yeah. No, I agree. And I think this is actually a really good theme. Among the first three interviews that I've done for this podcast is everyone has talked about growth, and Alicia said the same thing as you. I want to learn new things. I want to acquire new skills. And Julie talked a lot about the same thing. Just same as Alicia, same as you find the thing that you're really passionate about, if you stick with that, then you're kind of always on the right track. Like you say, you may have to jump a little bit between positions, depending on what era of your life you're in, but as long as you still love what you do or you love your topic, I mean, that's really what matters. [01:02:59] Speaker B: Exactly. And again, I think people see, well, I've got to do this this year and this next year and this next year in order to be CEO in ten years. And I'm like, you know what? Sometimes your path wiggles all around, but you're always going to gain experience from every role, right. Even if you're not super excited about the role. No one is an indentured survey. [01:03:22] Speaker C: Right. [01:03:23] Speaker B: No one is going to sign you up and say you're stuck in this for the next ten years. [01:03:26] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:03:26] Speaker A: Right. [01:03:28] Speaker B: Take the skills you learn. The other big thing is I meet so many different people in all of these roles, right. And all of these more networking events or organizations or just working with the different therapeutic areas as well. And all of those are people who someday I'm going to reach out to them. [01:03:55] Speaker C: Right. [01:03:56] Speaker B: I'm going to connect with them. So never discount the value of the network of people, you know? [01:04:03] Speaker A: Absolutely. And I think that's something that I tell people all the time, especially as scientists, and, God forbid, especially now with phones. It's so easy to just not talk to anybody. You grab your little plate of crude, a glass of wine, I don't want to talk to anybody right now. But you never know who you talk to that might end up being this incredible influence in your life moving forward. Exactly. [01:04:33] Speaker B: And people reach out all the time. [01:04:35] Speaker A: Like, remember, I met you here. [01:04:38] Speaker B: I'm interested in potentially knowing more about this. Do you know anybody I'm like, oh. [01:04:42] Speaker A: Actually, I know someone. [01:04:43] Speaker B: Let me put you in touch with them. You can ask them all your questions. You like, or yeah, you're like, you know what? I've got this question, and, oh, I know someone who has actually done this right. Who I can actually leverage. [01:04:56] Speaker A: Absolutely. [01:04:58] Speaker B: Especially in this whole hybrid world. [01:05:00] Speaker C: Right. [01:05:01] Speaker B: It's a little harder, but that's an actually really important aspect of yeah. [01:05:07] Speaker A: And I think it goes back to this idea. That science doesn't occur in a vacuum. Right. And we always need to reach out to either other thought leaders or the person who has that technology or that resource or that animal model. It applies now, too. And I think one of my mentors, one of the best things that she does is she knows everybody and she loves putting people in touch with each other. You almost can't have a conversation with her when she doesn't say, oh, you need to meet this person. And then next thing I know, there's a virtual introduction. So I think a lesson for whoever's listening would be to reach out to people. If you want to know more about a position or you want to maybe find someone who knows how to do this your own network or you find people on LinkedIn. I mean, there's nothing wrong with going up to a person at a conference and saying, tell me about your job. You take the free piece of candy or you take the free piece of but you can also ask them, what do you do here? People love to talk about that. [01:06:20] Speaker B: And that's the biggest thing, I think we all worry about ourselves, right? But I will say the biggest learning in being in medical, which is more talking to everyone else, is people love to talk about themselves. You ask them a question about tell. [01:06:36] Speaker A: Me about your work. Tell me about what you do. [01:06:38] Speaker B: You don't have to say anything for the next 20 minutes. [01:06:40] Speaker C: Right. [01:06:40] Speaker B: They will tell you all about themselves. Oh, yeah. And so you learn a lot. I think we focus on how do we present ourselves, how do we reach out? And some of it is just learn to listen. And you will take so many pieces of information. [01:06:58] Speaker A: Yeah. That's actually a perfect segue know, we're about to wrap up. But I mean, I'm just thinking I've taken so much from this conversation with you and my conversation with Julie, my conversation with are you? These are people that I would probably reach out to and say, how are the kids? How's Jason? How's Worcester? You live in I we would talk more about probably social things, but this conversation has been amazing, Sarah. I feel like I need to do this more often. [01:07:31] Speaker B: I know. And you were talking about some of the other people we went to school with, and I'm like and I'm thinking of back My Mind. I'm like, I should really talk to them. [01:07:41] Speaker A: Yes, you do. [01:07:44] Speaker B: You see their kids or cute cats like on Facebook or Instagram, right. But you don't think about them as they're truly part of that kind of ecosystem of health care. And that's the other. I run into a lot of people who have come out of academia, and the first thing they always tell me is it was really hard because everyone told me I was going to the dark side when I started to look at Pharma. And I think we need to break that wall down because we are all in this together. Everyone thinks Pharma is they're so evil, but we do amazing things, and there's so many more things that we do that no one pays any attention to or understands. [01:08:31] Speaker C: Right? [01:08:34] Speaker B: There's not just sales and research and development. There's so many things, and we collaborate so much with academia and healthcare institutions. So it's not me versus them or us versus them situation. It really is just part of the same system. [01:08:55] Speaker A: I completely agree, and I think it's more like basic science, but like a larger scale. And that was something that you talked about, is something that Julie talked about, realizing you're counting androgen receptors and Axons and Julie's quantifying heat shock proteins in another part of the brain, and you're realizing this could be a therapeutic. But I don't want to treat facial nerve injury in hamsters. I want to treat it in people. I want to treat insomnia and chronic migraine and these other things. There's actual diseases out there that your skill set could help out with. And so no, I agree. One of the things that I want to do with this podcast is kind of knock down some of those barriers and encourage people to learn more about what options are in industry, because we're really nice people, and it's okay. Make money and have a nice life and not write grants. It's okay. [01:09:56] Speaker B: And that's the thing, right? The basic science is so critical, but you really have to be all in on it and love it, right? If that's not your desire, you don't want to do that. There are other options, right? Because there's always going to be some amazing scientist who loves to dig down deep into that, and they will be the basis of the and they'll get their Nobel Prize, right? They'll be the basis of a therapy in the next 1020 years and more power to them. I think it's just sometimes you realize that's just not going to be you. [01:10:33] Speaker A: Some of the people who are the key opinion leaders at all the companies that I've worked for so far are people who I met as a graduate student, whose papers I read, whose posters I saw, who, if I was lucky, they came to my poster. [01:10:49] Speaker B: You're all star struck, like, oh, my. [01:10:50] Speaker A: Gosh, look who's here. Starstruck for some of these people. But then you get a chance to work with them because their science is the foundation for the therapeutics that are now being made. So it's really not that far of a leap. So I love emphasizing that to people. [01:11:09] Speaker B: That's great. [01:11:10] Speaker A: That's a good point. [01:11:12] Speaker B: It is. And we still get to talk to all those people, right? Even if we're not running those studies or geeking out anymore, we geek out in new ways. [01:11:25] Speaker A: Talk to me more now that I'm on the industry side, because they're like, so what are you guys interested in now? There's one doctor, there's one scientist who asks me all the time, what's your stock doing? I'm not telling you. What do you think? Stop it. [01:11:40] Speaker B: No insert or trading. [01:11:42] Speaker A: Exactly. Come on. [01:11:44] Speaker B: I can't tell you that. He's like, I know. I just thought I'd ask. [01:11:46] Speaker A: But this is someone who never spoke to me when I was a student just because he was up here, I was down here, and now somehow making that leap kind of levels that playing field in some weird way. And it gives you some confidence, too, which is good. [01:12:01] Speaker B: It does, I think, in our roles, too. It's exciting when you bring two labs together, two KOLs together, and let's work on a project together, and they're like but at the end, they're like the best friends, and they're going off doing new things. It's a different approach. [01:12:23] Speaker A: Right. [01:12:23] Speaker B: It's a different part of that ecosystem. Right. It's still fun, and I still get to talk about science all the time, which is cool. [01:12:32] Speaker A: Well, Sarah, thank you so much. This was a delight. And you shared so many good pieces of information. And can people find you on LinkedIn if they want to connect? [01:12:44] Speaker B: Yes. That's probably the only social media that I'm actually good at because I cannot follow the others. And my 15 year old is constantly yelling at me to stay off of his site. So, yes, feel free at LinkedIn. I am always happy to talk to anyone. [01:13:04] Speaker A: My Instagram is all, like, dog and cat photos. Those are my favorite. Sarah, thank you. [01:13:11] Speaker B: So. [01:13:16] Speaker A: We'Ll cut that out. That was awkward. Yeah. So, Sarah, thank you so much for joining us today. [01:13:23] Speaker B: Thank you so much, Cindy. It was so good to talk to you. Bye bye. [01:14:44] Speaker A: I just want to thank Dr. Sarah Sarke again for joining me today and for sharing all of that wonderful insight with all of you. And yeah, see you next time.