From Classroom to Courtroom

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Bench to Boardroom podcast. As always, I am your host, Cynthia Steele, and I am so excited for you to meet my guest today. Her name is Doctor Melissa Holcomb. And Melissa and I knew each other as young, optimistic graduate students at Loyola University Chicago. But when you hear her story, you'll hear that Melissa's story is really one of perseverance and grit, and most importantly, just taking what she wanted. And I mean that in the best way possible. Melissa went on from Loyola, where she graduated with her PhD in neuroscience, to Indiana University, where she did two postdocs and also did a couple of internships at a few different companies before she decided to go to law school while she was still a postdoc. So she was postdocing by day and going to law school by night. And now she is in, I believe, her 6th year of a, being a patent litigator at the law firm of K and L. Gates in Chicago. Melissa and I talk about really just everything related to the struggles of graduate school and what it's like when that switch suddenly flips and you realize that what you need to do is what's best for you, not what's best for your PI or for anybody else. And it's a remarkable conversation, and I'm still reeling from how we ended it because she has an amazing story. So you have to listen all the way to the end to get to this incredible way that Melissa wraps up the. The entire interview. So, with that, here's my interview with Doctor Melissa Holcomb. Doctor Melissa Holcomb, welcome to the Bench to boardroom podcast. [00:02:19] Speaker B: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. [00:02:21] Speaker A: It is so good to see you. We knew each other in graduate school. We were a few years apart, right? [00:02:28] Speaker B: Yeah. It's been a while. [00:02:31] Speaker A: And you have done some incredible things with your life since the last time I saw you, I think. So. Why don't you. Why don't you introduce yourself to the audience? [00:02:42] Speaker B: Okay, so I'm Melissa Holcombe, and I am an attorney at K and L. [00:02:48] Speaker A: Gates, which is so cool, but you also have a PhD in. Was it anatomy or was it neuroscience? [00:02:55] Speaker B: Neuroscience. [00:02:56] Speaker A: Neuroscience. [00:02:56] Speaker B: Okay. [00:02:56] Speaker A: That's right. A lot of our labs had, there was a lot of parallels between the anatomy department and the neuroscience department, a lot of the same PIs. And so I was always, I was on the anatomy side, but I never could remember who was also in my program versus neuroscience, so very, very cool. All right, so then I guess, like, what my first question for you is, like, how did you get into science? And, like, what made. What got you to the point that you wanted to pursue a PhD in neuroscience? [00:03:25] Speaker B: Well, I always was interested in science and psychology, and so when I started at Michigan State, I just started taking, you know, the classes that were interesting to me, and one stood out that was an abnormal psychology course, and I absolutely loved it. In particular, there was a section that we discussed, and it was a dopamine theory of schizophrenia, which I think is fairly well known, and it was a little bit newer back then, but the way they presented it was great because they kind of discussed the different treatments, the. The drugs that you would take for schizophrenia and then also for Parkinson's disease. And so the dopamine theory kind of came out of that, and you. They. You know, the way that you can understand what's going on in the brain by using different drugs was fascinating. And so from that point, I started to reach out to some of the research laboratories, and I got a position as a technician in one of those and actually worked in two others throughout my undergraduate studies. So I definitely took the MCAT and the GRE, like I think most of us did, and I applied, but my grades were not that great, so didn't get into medical school. I had a few interviews for graduate school, but I was not accepted. So I worked for the next year at. I had a contract position at Pfizer, and so I worked in a chemistry QC lab, and I definitely enjoyed that. But it did become a little bit repetitive after about a year, and so that only solidified my desire to go into graduate school and biomedical research. So I retook the GRE and improved my score, and then I ended up at Loyola right after that. [00:05:54] Speaker A: I actually didn't know that about you because I think a lot of us just kind of assume that, especially when you look at somebody after a certain period of time and a certain point in their career and they're polished and they're well spoken and they're so knowledgeable, and you just kind of assume that it was smooth sailing for them, you know, that she must have gotten really good grades in college and sailed through grad school. Must have been so easy for her. But that's why I love asking questions like this, because then these stories come out that this. We all struggled and we all had our own things that we had to deal with when we were young people. [00:06:31] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I. And I always like to share that because, you know, it's. You make mistakes. I mean, there were some classes where I just I don't know what I was doing. I just, you know, it wasn't the top priority. And then later you find out, you know, that now, now you're dealing with some challenges because of the decisions you made early on, but you can fix that. I mean, you can go retake a few classes, improve those grades or test scores, and then try again. And I recall my second set of interviews at Loyola, that second round. I remember telling one professor, you know, that had he had noticed that I had interviewed before, I think he might have interviewed me this both times. And I said, you know, what I had done in the meantime between those two improving my scores. And they were still kind of looking at my grades and questioning, and I said, you know, this is what I want to do. I've made the decision, and if you don't accept me this time, I will just see you next year because I'm going to keep doing it. And I actually think that that was something that helped me get the spot. I mean, they don't, when they take in students, you know, they want you to succeed. They don't want you dropping out. They want you to continue the research, publish with the university. And so I think they were like, she's committed. [00:08:17] Speaker A: That's like something out of a tv show. Like the first, like the pilot episode of a tv show has that, the scrappy character who says, fine, I'll see you next year. You know, I love that. And they want people with grit, I think. And you showed by that alone and by coming back, you have tenacity, you have gritz. You could do this, you know, maybe your path is gonna be different from somebody else's. But I love that. I think that's great. And, you know, now is probably a good enough time as I need to tell the audience that I failed my comprehensive exams the first time around. It was a horrible experience, and I'm sure there were many, many reasons for that. But one professor that we both know, who was kind of the patriarch of the department, I remember, had a bit of advice for me, and I think he said something to the effect of, you can only outrun the things in your life for so long before they catch up with you, you know? And, you know, there was just a lot going on in my personal life in my early twenties, and a lot was happening and work suffered, and as a result, you know, I ended up having to retake my comps after. After a year off. But that. It's interesting when your professors see you like that, you never want them to see your vulnerabilities. But when someone could actually look at you and say, it's okay. This kind of stuff happens to everybody. [00:09:38] Speaker B: Yep. [00:09:39] Speaker A: Just, you know, just come back in a year and you'll be so much better for it. And. And you did. That's phenomenal. So then what, I guess, like, what was grad school like for you after. After all that? I mean, MSU has a phenomenal neuroscience program. So then when you get to Loyola, what was that like? [00:09:58] Speaker B: It was. It was pretty tough. I mean, I guess I didn't know what to expect, but, you know, I was not prepared for the core curriculum. Yeah, that's right. [00:10:12] Speaker A: You had the core. I didn't. I was earlier than you, so I didn't take the core. What was that like? [00:10:17] Speaker B: It was brutal. It. I. For those of you that don't know the core curriculum, it was, you know, I don't know if it's still set up like this, but it's the first two semesters, and all of the department, all the graduate students from all the departments in the biomedical graduate school take the same set of courses. And so there we had classes for, I think, 3 hours a day. And so I think it was 16 weeks long. And for the. That first semester, 16 weeks, we had 14 exams, and exams were always on Monday, and they were handwritten essay and lasted anywhere from two to 5 hours. So it completely ruined almost every weekend for the first semester. And, I mean, our lives just revolved around this exam schedule. It was like a. I think a boot camp. I mean, you just. It's all we did was just study for the next exam and then get that done. Think, you know, have a couple hours to yourself on Monday evening and then back to it the next day, starting with class to prepare for the next exam. [00:11:51] Speaker A: What kind of classes were you taking? Because you guys were all integrated. So was it like a sampling of everything? [00:11:57] Speaker B: Yeah, it was like biochem, cell biology. There was like a ethics course. I think there was like an introduction to research methods. So we kind of learned a little bit about everything, you know, different techniques and stuff. There was a medical course that kind of went through, like, cardiology and just different. Kind of got, like an overview of everything. I see. And then. So the second year was when all of the departments kind of split off, and so you took your classes that were specific, you know, to your actual department. I took some classes with the medical students, so I took gross anatomy and then medical neuroscience, so I love those classes. [00:12:52] Speaker A: Gross anatomy was a trip, wasn't it? That was I remember when I took that class, too. It was a little wild. You're like, oh, my God, that's a person. [00:13:02] Speaker B: I know. It's probably my favorite class. I would say. [00:13:09] Speaker A: So that must mean you're a good memorizer. I'm just assuming because I hated anatomy because you just, like, pointed at something and had to identify it, you know? And there was. I preferred classes like histology, where you could look at something and kind of understand its function based on how it looked versus, you know, or how it operated versus just pointing at something and saying, you know, that each little piece of this bone or this organ or this sub organ, everything has a name, and some old white guy named it after himself. And you just have to remember what that name is. And it was a nightmare, right? [00:13:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:50] Speaker A: But medical neuroscience was fun, because, again, that's that, like, structure and function. You know, if you can understand where this tract is coming from in the brain and where it's going, that can at least give you some clues as to what it does. And that must have fed into your early interest in schizophrenia, too, your abnormal psychology class. [00:14:09] Speaker B: Yeah, it did. Yeah. [00:14:12] Speaker A: So then what lab did you end up working in? [00:14:15] Speaker B: So I went into Kathryn Jones lab, and my research was focused on the immune mediated neuroprotection and neurodegenerative diseases, specifically ALS or Lou Gehrig's disease. [00:14:34] Speaker A: I just saw a question. Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. [00:14:38] Speaker B: So I. So let's see. I lost my train of thought. [00:14:48] Speaker A: I'm sorry. [00:14:50] Speaker B: That's okay. Yeah, so she. So my research was focused on Lou Gehrig's disease, or ALS. And I think it was around close to my final year of research is when I learned that she was moving to Indiana University in Indianapolis, which is where the medical school campus is, and she was going to take the chair position of the anatomy department. And so I ended up moving with her to Indianapolis and finished up my PhD there and then started postdocing with her. [00:15:34] Speaker A: Nice. I was just thinking, I saw a special recently on Lou Gehrig's disease, and I think the foundation is called I am ALS or something like that. But it was these two people who worked as staffers on the Obama campaign. They met on the campaign, they got married, they had their first child, and then he was diagnosed with ALS. And it's like a patient advocacy group, but I forget, I'll have to put the title of it in the notes. But I watched it on my last united flight home, and it was just incredibly moving. And, I mean, kudos. To you and to anybody who researches that kind of disease because it's heartbreaking when you think about the population who suffers, you know, you see young, vibrant people just deteriorate. It's horrible. So, I mean, that's wonderful. [00:16:28] Speaker B: And it's so fast, too. It's. Yeah. By the time you find out, it's your. The clock is ticking. I mean, it's. It's an awful disease. [00:16:40] Speaker A: You still have any interest in that? Or do you ever, like, come across a paper and want to read it or anything? Just curious? [00:16:47] Speaker B: I actually don't. And I, you know, I, while I liked, you know, attempting to make a difference and do my part, you know, researching, hoping that that particular piece of the puzzle would be helpful, you know, down the road, it was. It was difficult to do because, you know, ultimately I knew that the, you know, that the path to a better treatment or a cure is not very likely. And it's nothing that probably we're going to see in our lifetime. And so I. Once I had that realization, and not all diseases are like that. And, you know, I could have been wrong, but I. It was difficult to do that. And so even, you know, specials like that program you're talking about that are the documentary. I mean, I don't even like to watch them today just because I understand, you know, what that's like. And it almost takes me back to that time. So. [00:18:02] Speaker A: No, I understand. I understand. And especially for a while when we were working in the same building, we worked at the veterans hospital, you know, and so it was not uncommon to see people with spinal cord injuries hanging out in the courtyard, you know, or young guys after the war, you know, coming back from the war, they have a tvi or, you know, they're just walking around and, you know, and then you have these, you know, world War two veterans that are still kicking around, you know, hanging around the canteen all day telling stories, you know, so there were definitely some good things about, you know, seeing people who are exposed to, you know, I guess had that as part of their life, but there's definitely some. Some really sad parts to it, too. So now I understand. So at iu then, is that when you became interested in law school? [00:18:53] Speaker B: Yeah. So that's it. That's an interesting story. [00:18:56] Speaker A: Okay. [00:18:57] Speaker B: It was. So during my first year of my postdoc, I was teaching. I was a ta for the gross anatomy course, and I taught at the satellite campuses, and I taught a couple lectures for the dental students. So I was, you know, working on my cv, which is something they always tell you, you know, to do, which you're just kind of working for free still, but. And so I was going to do one lecture for a graduate student course, and I was going to talk about ALS. And so I met with the course director just to go over basics. How long is this? How much detail do you want me to go into? But this meeting turned into, like, an involuntary career mentoring meeting. He asked me, what are your plans to do with your career? You know? And at that point, I thought I had two options. You know, one is to complete the postdoc and then hopefully jump to industry, because I still was recalling my work advisor. I liked that. And I thought working in the research in a pharmaceutical company would be great. And so that was. That was what I was planning on doing. But I also had liked teaching gross anatomy, and so I was kind of considering, you know, maybe I could stay in academics, you know? And so I had. I mentioned that, and I don't know why he decided to suggest or tell me about the possibility of merging science and law and talked about intellectual property. And, you know, at that point, I was sitting there, you know, needing to go back to the lab and do work, and I just thought, you have got to be kidding. I don't ever want to take another exam. The last thing I want to do is be studying for the LSAT, you know, and I thought, this guy's nuts. Like, I'm not doing that. I'm definitely not doing that. So I left, and then fast forward, you know, two years down the road. I'm. I need to move on from my postdoc. And I. At that point, I said, I'm going to industry. I love teaching gross anatomy, but that's like, it's eight to ten week course once a year. I mean, what am I going to do with the rest of my time? And that's what I didn't like, is the rest of the time. So I. At that point, my husband and I bought a house, and he was in an electrician apprenticeship program in Indy. And so we had to. We had to stay in Indy at that point. But there were options. I mean, Eli Lilly's headquarters are there, and there's a lot of different CROs. So I put my resume out and I thought, I'll get something. I had. I didn't even have a phone interview, not one. It was. It was like a reality had sunk in at that point, and so I thought I had to do something. I do not want to do another postdoc. But it was inevitable. So I had to take another postdoc. And as I was looking around, you know, for which lab I was going to go into next, I started to revisit that conversation that I had. And the more I started to kind of consider that, the more it looked like that might be a good opportunity for me. [00:22:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. So then I guess. I guess it's one thing to think about, like, actually making the decision, and it's another to apply and take the LSAT. I mean, this is a totally different part of your brain now that you have to engage. Right? [00:23:19] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, this. So what I did when I started to seriously think about it is this time I actually started to talk to people, which is something I didn't do when I decided to go to grad school. I mean, I had talked to, you know, obviously the people that I was working for, the PIs in the undergrad labs I was in. But other than that, I really didn't look into it. I didn't look at the salaries that you make. And so this time, I. I didn't personally know any attorneys, but I had friends. That husband was an attorney. And so I first just put the feelers out, and anyone that knew an attorney, I tried to talk to them, and then I went over to the law school. So IU has two law schools, the main and the more well known law schools in Bloomington. But the Indianapolis campus had a law school. It's called the McKinney School of Law. And they. So I went over there, and I just started to talk to them. They put me in touch with some people at the school. One of them was. She was director of a new program. They had a master's program called an MJ. So masters in jurisprudence. And I was thinking about that, and I actually applied to that one. And then while their application was pending, they put me in touch with an alumni, and I met him with him for coffee, and it turns out he was general counsel for Eli Lilly back in the day. I kind of told him what my plan was to get the masters and then maybe work with in house counsel a little bit, be able to kind of bridge the gap between the scientists in the lab and then the attorneys. Or if I worked for a startup, at least I would have some knowledge and intellectual property contracts, stuff like that. So I was just trying to market myself and improve so that I wouldn't be passed by, you know, the next time I tried to get a job in industry. And, you know, he listened to the story, and he said, well, why aren't you just doing the full JD. And I said, well, that's like several years. And I, you know, I don't know. They, you know, they had an evening program, which is what I had planned to do, so you could work during the day and then go to classes in the evening. And he said, what are you, what are you going to be doing in four years? And I said, reluctantly, I said, probably the same thing I'm doing right now. Honestly, I'll probably still be a postdoc, you know. And so he said, you should just do the JD. Those that time is going to pass regardless, and you can either have a JD to show for it or just a masters with extra years as a postdoc. And I said, he's right, like, I need to do that. And so I'm, you know, he, he suggested that. And you, you know, this, going through this experience, it really opened my eyes to how important it is to have mentors in your professional life. And it's something that was not talked about in, you know, graduate school other than, you know, your PI, your committee members. And then, you know, all this, all the students you went through the core curriculum with. I mean, we didn't really have any mentors. It was almost, it just seemed like, well, when you need to change, do get a new position, you just tell your PI and then they tell you who they know and who you're going to work for next. And so I really started at this point realizing that I need, I need a support system professionally that I can learn what's out there, talk through these things, and then get other people's opinions and then be able to make a decision about what is best for me, 100%. [00:28:18] Speaker A: And honestly, it sounds very intimidating to go into, like, the law school basically, and say, you know, that this is who I am. I have a, I have a PhD in neuroscience. I'm not sure this is what I want to do, you know, I mean, I guess, how did. I'm just curious, how did those conversations go in that? Did you know, kind of, what kind of lawyer you wanted to be? Or did you, were you already thinking patent law or did you just ask, you know, what do you do, what courses do you teach, etcetera? Like, what kind of questions are you asking them? [00:28:55] Speaker B: I kind of was. I went in with the mindset that they're going, you know, I have so many questions that they will put me in touch with the people that I need to talk to and which is exactly what happened. I mean, I meeting with that individual that was, you know, general counsel for Lilly previously, he. Immediately after we met, he set up some meetings at Lilly with current patent attorneys. So I'm one of them, had a PhD in neuroscience and basically did exactly what I did. So I, through just asking for help, I mean, I was put in touch with people that were doing exactly what I was considering doing. And so I got to ask them, you know, why did you do that? What was it like, what do you do now? And so I. It was excellent. I mean, and the more I talked to these attorneys, the more it solidified that, you know, I was doing the right thing for me. I needed. I needed something that was challenging, but I would be able to excel. I wanted to become, you know, excellent at what I did. And I just was not finding that in academics, and I couldn't even break through, you know, into industry at that point. And so to find out what they did on just a daily, basic basis, you know, tasks and, you know, what their career opportunities looked like and the fact that they made a really good living, I mean, this was. It was a no brainer. After I spent enough time talking with everyone. [00:31:02] Speaker A: I absolutely love that. And I. And I love hearing stories like this because it's so important for trainees to learn to look outside the box. And if you start asking questions and I try to bring this up, almost every episode I record. Talk to people at conferences, talk to your friends, talk to their spouses, find out what other people do for a living, because there are so many. And, you know, obviously, listen to this podcast, but. And others because there's so many other avenues that you can take with this incredible niche that you have, and you can use it in a way that's different from anybody else. You just have to find out that those options are even available to you. And that's a lot of what you will not learn in graduate school because, you know, in many ways, our PIs always, I shouldn't say always. Some of them don't mean well, but many PIs mean well. They want to keep you because you're good and you're well trained, and they want to nurture you in the same path that they know. But when it comes time to break free, it's so important to understand what your value is. Right, and say, I can do more than this. [00:32:16] Speaker B: Exactly. And I think it's one thing to, you know, if your PI loves their. Their career, loves their life, you know, that's. That's excellent for them. But that does not mean that that's the best path, the best career, just the best decisions for everyone else. And it's almost like it's just a little too, you know, the sights of what you want to do with your life. It's, it's not the same for everyone. And so I, I realized back then I need to do what's best for me, and I'm not listening to anyone anymore. I'm going to figure out what everyone's, what these different opportunities would be like, and then I'm going to do what's best for me. [00:33:14] Speaker A: I love that. I love that because we were talking briefly before we even started recording that, especially as a young, 20 something female in largely male dominated fields, that's, that's a brave decision. You know, when we get older, we, it's more instinctive to do that as we come, become more independent. But in school and as a postdoc, and especially in the position that you were in, feeling like, I just need to do another postdoc, I mean, that can be incredibly intimidating to say, no, I'm gonna charter my own path. And, I mean, that took a lot of courage. So, I mean, kudos to you for doing it. So how did your PI react? [00:34:00] Speaker B: Well, she didn't know. So I, you know, because at first, I just. At first, I knew what, I knew what she was gonna say, that I'm nuts, and. No, what I. She's gonna tell me, no, you don't need to do that. You're not gonna do that. What you're gonna do is I'm going to help you with get another postdoc, and then we're going to work on this, and you're going to write, start writing grants. And I knew exactly what she was going to say. I knew whatever, almost any professor there was probably going to say, any research professor. So I didn't want any influences from the academic, the researchers. And so I was going through the process of learning, and, you know, as I was doing that to make sure this is something I wanted to do, I was also, like I mentioned, trying to find that second postdoc. And I had worked with a professor on a book chapter that he was writing, and I had helped him out. And so I started, I don't know, I ran into him and, you know, told him I was looking for an opportunity, and he knew someone, and so we, he didn't have his own research lab. He was strictly just professor for the medical school. And so he knew someone and was trying to. He set up some meetings because they were looking for a postdoc and this kind of drug out for a long time, these meetings, to just see if I could, you know, if we were a good fit. And I remember discussing with him at some point that, you know, what I'm, that I had told him that I was going to apply to law school and that this is something that I wanted to do. And he actually was supportive. He said, well, if that's what you want to do, then, you know, you should definitely do that. And I think maybe because he worked so closely with the med students that it wasn't as foreign to him as it might be, you know, an academic researcher. And so I told him, though, I said, I'm, you know, I just don't feel right being, you know, I feel like I'm being deceptive. Even though a postdoc is only going to be two to three years, I mean, it's a temporary position. So what I do after that, should it have no bearing on whether I'm going to be a postdoc. I mean, but I still, I just, I said, I think I'm gonna tell him, you know, I'm going to go to the evening program. And it, and he said, absolutely not. He said, don't you don't. If you tell this person, you tell any PI that's about to hire a postdoc that you, this postdoc is going to be going to law school in the evening, I can hire you. [00:37:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:05] Speaker B: They want to know that when you go home, you're going to pop open the laptop and continue, you know, working on your figures or the data or your grant application. They don't want you doing anything else. That means you're not going to work as much for them. And so I thought, he's totally right. And it shouldn't matter what I do from 06:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. monday through Friday. What if I was going to, you know, take hip hop dance lessons? I mean, this is none of their business. I made the decision like that. No, I'm not telling anyone. And I didn't, I didn't end up getting that particular postdoc, but I did take another postdoc, and that particular postdoc had, they had me working at IU for a little bit of the time. And then the other part, I worked at their startup company, which was a great opportunity and gave me a little bit more experience that is beneficial as an attorney, because I worked at a startup company. I know exactly what it's like, what their needs are. So it was a, it was a great fit, and I so I worked with the. There was two. Two PIs, essentially, and one kind of focused more on the startup, and then the other was, I think he was dean of the graduate school, too, so he was pretty busy, but he was more involved with his, his lab at the university. And so I went through an entire, first, my entire first semester of a law school before. And I told them after, I told them in January, I think, that, hey, just want to let you know, I have been going to law school in the evening. I'm going to be an attorney. I'm going to be a patent attorney. And I did not tell you because I was worried that you would think that it would affect my work, but. [00:39:28] Speaker A: And if you haven't noticed. [00:39:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:30] Speaker A: Amazing. Wow. So, okay, so I have a couple questions. If you were taking, if you were in law school at night, does. Was the night program, does that take longer than if you were in, like, the daytime program? Do you take the same classes? Like, how did. Do you know how the curriculums differ at all? [00:39:51] Speaker B: It's. So the day program is. It would be faster. It's about three years. [00:39:58] Speaker A: Okay. [00:39:59] Speaker B: Standard is three years. And then, so the evening program, generally, it's usually like four, but it's. It's more. You can kind of customize it however you need to. What I liked about it was, it was, it seemed just like a group of adults compared to the day, the, you know, the regular program. [00:40:27] Speaker A: Sure. [00:40:28] Speaker B: It. There were. There were parents. I mean, every. And everyone, pretty much everyone was working. And so, I mean, it. It didn't have the same, you know, our conversations were what I was used to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It. It was, the evening program was. Was great. It was phenomenal. It was more. A little more difficult to get the classes that you would want to take. I mean, you had. I had to wait until they were available, you know, in the. In the evenings, and sometimes they're just not available. I mean, there's only a couple hours in that window, but, you know, and for law school, there's not many classes during the summer. There are a few. So I was able to kind of catch up and move a little bit faster by taking some of the summer courses. But one thing I didn't realize until I was in law school was, during the summers, everyone does these internships. They call them summer programs. So you apply, you know, early in the spring, and you try to get a spot in the summer program somewhere at a firm, and that gives you the experience. And, you know, I, since I was working, I assumed, well, I'm just gonna have to hope someone hires me when I, you know, get my JD with zero experience. I did. At that point. I knew that having a PhD was going to be beneficial, so I had, I had that advantage. Overdose the other students. But I had a meeting with my mentors, my law school mentors, and one, and the attorney that I mentioned that worked at Eli Lilly that had the neuroscience PhD, she was there and we were talking about just catching up what I was doing and they said, are you going to go to the, the Loyola patent fair? And now this is, this is in Indianapolis. And I, my ears pricked up, so I was like, loyola, that's her. That's where I got my PhD. What are you talking about? [00:42:56] Speaker A: Going home? Yeah. [00:42:58] Speaker B: Yeah. I said, I didn't heard anything about this at the school. And they said, oh, you won't hear anything about it at your school, but they said, you, you need to go to that. And I, you know, to get an internship, you need to go do an internship. And I said, I'm working. Like, I would love to go back to Chicago. Like, that was kind of my goal the whole time is to get back to Chicago when I could afford it, but it's. And so I said, I just, I'm working, you know, and they said, no, you have to go. You'll figure it out. Just see, you know. And so I applied and then it's a two, two day interview program where all, just a ton of big firms come and they spend the two days interviewing students to fill these summer programs. And so I went. I think I got ten interviews, which is of a lot. And I think this is because of my PhD. I was, there's a, there were a few other people with PhDs, but not, not many. And so I was there thinking, and I don't know how, I don't know what I'm going to do if I get one of these. I don't know if my postdocs going to disappear then or how this is going to work out, but we'll just figure it out if I get, if I get a spot. And I assumed because coming from graduates like in academic research, that this is an unpaid internship. Well, it actually was a paid internship and the salary is set at what a first year law student would make. [00:44:51] Speaker A: Okay. [00:44:53] Speaker B: And so I learned shortly after this, going to the Loyola patent fair that that's, it's a lot of money. I mean, you know, you can look this up online because right now all the big law firms, they're following a certain scale pay scale. And right now, the first. The salary for first year straight out of law school is 215,000. And so it was. It was the last six years of. [00:45:26] Speaker A: My life, like, just drift out of my body. [00:45:30] Speaker B: I was just. I was shocked because. And, you know, it was lower than that back in 2018. But I just quickly did the math in my head. I mean, ten weeks at a salary like that? Well, it doesn't matter if I don't have a job anymore, right? I would almost make my entire. Your salary in the ten weeks that I would be in this summer program. [00:45:57] Speaker A: Yeah. That's when you peace out and say, thank you so much. I am. Bye bye. [00:46:02] Speaker B: And then I learned that how these programs work is usually, if you do a great. A good job, I mean, you know, you don't commit any crimes or sexually harass anyone, you are probably going to get a spot. And so they will. When your summer program is over, you will probably get an offer to come back and be hired the following year. And so I'm sitting there learning this and thinking, thank God that my mentors told me to get on the computer and apply for this to the past year. And so, you know, I. One of my interviews with. Was with K and L. Gates, and I. It's a ten. There's ten minute interviews, like speed dating. [00:46:54] Speaker A: Oh, they were pitched, like down pat, didn't you? [00:46:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. But I. The two attorneys I interviewed with, I, you know, I left the room, and I was like, I would just love to go out to dinner with them or go for drinks, because it just was. The chemistry was great. I mean, I could have stayed in there for, you know, an hour talking with them. I love the feeling this is the place I want to work. I want to work with people like that. [00:47:20] Speaker A: I love that feeling. [00:47:22] Speaker B: So, yeah, that's. I did the summer program and that next year, and then I got my offer, and I've been here ever since. [00:47:33] Speaker A: Amazing. I have to ask. Cause, like, the only. Okay. The only exposure that I technically have to the law. And unfortunately, any. And this is not a political podcast, but unfortunately, anyone who follows anything related to politics, you see how much the law, it bleeds into political life, especially lately. And there's. My favorite law podcast is called strict scrutiny, and it's by these three just incredible kick ass ladies who are constitutional law professors who talk about everything from the Supreme Court to, like, Taylor Swift, and they meld it all together. And I like, that's the first thing I listen to on Monday mornings. And a lot of the times, though, when they explain things, you know, because they go through each case that the Supreme Court is covering, you know, so this week, we heard arguments on this case, and here's why you should care. And here's why, you know. Yes, this sounds super boring, you know, and the perfect example is the overturning of the Chevron doctrine. And they had a whole episode to say, that sounds super boring, but here's why you should care and why we should want experts in charge of regulatory agencies and not judges in charge of regulatory, or not judges in charge of medicine and making decisions about vaccines or the abortion pill or etcetera. But, Melissa, I got to tell you, I mean, my brain doesn't work this way, so I have to, I have to rewind several times as they're talking about some of these procedures because they, they start getting into, you know, these, these terms, and this is what this means, and they kind of blip through it. And I have to, like, pause the podcast, look up this terminal, you know, commit it to memory, and then keep listening. So, I mean, for anything I read in Legalese, I mean, you know, anyone who's ever signed a contract to buy a house, you just go through, and my eyes start to cross. It's like learning a second language. So what was that like for you to, especially if you're postdocing during the day and you're in law school at night? I mean, that's, that's two totally different things. What was that like? [00:49:52] Speaker B: I mean, I compartmentalized. I mean, I really just, you know, when I woke up, I. It was science and just dealing with everything that was going on at the lab and thinking about it. And then as soon as I was done and heading to class, I mean, it then switched. So now I'm just all locked, torts, contracts, whatever. And then I would go home. I'd get home around eight. I mean, sometimes, sometimes 939, 45, depending on what classes I had. And then I would study from till probably one, two in the morning, and I had to get up and then switch it back. And so I really just tried to focus, you know, only on, you know, one thing for large sections of the, you know, the day, and then, you know, switch it again. So I was, I was really tired. [00:50:59] Speaker A: For, oh, to be young again. That's all I can think. Oh, to be young again. Someone keeps me up past 1130, and I am just, I am gone the next day now, but I'm in my forties now, but, oh, my God. And, I mean, kudos to your husband for being like, yeah, go for it. I. I can. I can hold down the fort. I've got everything. You know, that. That's awesome. Not a lot of people have supported spouses like that. [00:51:26] Speaker B: Yeah, no, he was great. I wouldn't have been able to do it without him. And I, you know, he went through grad school with me and that was totally. And I think he thought, oh, we finally made it through then. But while I was. I know, while I was postdocing, he started an apprenticeship to be an electrician. And so he also had to take courses. And so it was interesting because once I was done with grad school, he happened to, you know, start going to the evening school and taking those classes. And that was a couple years, probably, I think two. At least two years. He had several nights a week where he. I wouldn't see him till, you know, eight or nine at night, and he went to. Worked all day. And so once he was done with. That was about the time I started law school. So we kind of took turns, you know, working on our professional careers in the evenings, you know, early on. [00:52:37] Speaker A: But now you guys can have fun. [00:52:39] Speaker B: Yes. And we finally have money to go on vacations, and it's not something that looked possible when I was, you know, had that postdoc. [00:52:51] Speaker A: Yeah. So are you glad that you went through both programs? Are you glad that you're a PhD, JD, or if you had to, if you visited your young self, would you have tried to steer yourself towards law school sooner? [00:53:05] Speaker B: I. I don't think I would do it differently. It's. My PhD is very beneficial in my current role, and so I don't regret it. It's a little bit difficult starting a new career later in life. You know, there's some of our, some of the attorneys are, you know, 26, you know, and I'm just like, wow, that's. That's so young, you know, so that part's not really fair. You know, I'm a six year associate now, so starting my 6th year. And, you know, a lot of. Most of my colleagues would, you know, be in their thirties, just, you know, then and so. But I also have all of that experience that's really helpful to clients. They, you know, I understand what it's like to work in the lab. I mean, I understand how the scientists are thinking. I know exactly. You know, I can read the patents better than some of my colleagues that didn't go to grad school. Maybe they just took a couple biology courses during undergrad. And also working with the experts is. There's almost I mean, it's almost like you're back in the lab and they know because they know I'm essentially just like them. You know, they, they seem to talk to me a little bit different, and they're more willing to, I think, spend the time to explain things to me versus, you know, someone that hasn't, doesn't have that background. And they're probably thinking, like, I don't have time to give you a course right now. [00:55:08] Speaker A: Right. [00:55:09] Speaker B: You know, primer design or something more. [00:55:13] Speaker A: Peer to peer when it's you. Yeah, I get that completely, because I would imagine also the way you ask your questions, it's more conducive to how they're already thinking, you know, again, going back to the language metaphor, you talk the same language, you know, and I want to say, I think it's so beneficial to have, as you're saying right now, I want to bury this in people's brains. It's so beneficial to be able to say, I have done that job. I understand that job because I have done it. I've worked at a startup company. I know how those people think. I have troubleshooted or troubleshoot an experiment from start to finish. I know what that's like. I understand how long it takes to write a paper or, you know, get a publication together or come up with a new idea and try to, you know, hide things from my competitors. I've done all of it. And that, that is an incredible selling point for anybody. And so what a, I guess kudos on your answer, because as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking, oh, my gosh, you know, you could have saved yourself a lot of hassle and heartache and, you know, budgeting and everything. But you're right, it's paid itself back in dividends with the knowledge that you have. [00:56:38] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Wow. [00:56:40] Speaker A: Wow, that's wonderful. So then are there any other PhDs that work at the firm? [00:56:45] Speaker B: Yeah, there's a few. And we all kind of, I don't know any that are litigators. And so just to give a little bit of background. So I work in the intellectual property. They call it practice groups. And so K and L. Gates is a big law firm, and big law means that it's got a couple hundred or even 1000 attorneys. And so K and L. Gates has, I think, over 1750 attorneys globally. We've got 45 offices over five continents. So we do all types of law. But I'm in the intellectual property practice group, which covers copyrights, trademarks and patents. I specifically work on patents and so, in that field, there's patent litigators. So they're the ones that go to court, and we're usually arguing about infringement or the validity or invalidity of the patents. And then there will also be a group of attorneys that help inventors get patents, and that's called prosecution. So, patent prosecution is kind of arguing with the USPTO in order to get your invention patented. And then the third group of attorneys, they're called technology transactional attorneys. And so they work with individual companies to do anything, basically anything that they need. A lot of contracts, license agreements with this, the patents, asset agreements. So purchasing, there's a lot of specific, you know, legal ramifications when you're. When you're doing those types of transactions. And so those are kind of the three areas a lot of the PhDs tend to work in patent prosecuting. That's where the few that I. That I can think of, that's. That's where their focus is. [00:59:13] Speaker A: That. That sounds like a good home base, too. You know, like, you're. We're two scientists, and I'm gonna help you, you know, fight for your. For your ip or help you get your. Help you get your patent. I understand that. When you said that, I thought, oh, yeah, that actually does sound a little bit of healing. So then I. If there are people who are listening who say, gosh, this sounds really cool. What opportunities are available either at your law firm or just in general, for people who are science minded but maybe don't want to go back to, maybe don't want to go back to school. [00:59:53] Speaker B: So there, the opportunities are. They're limited, but they are. They do exist. There are some positions. They're usually called. I can think of the phrase, I think it's a technical specialist. I think that's a particular position that our firm offers. There's not many. And so these will be often PhDs that will be hired in a particular, you know, with a particular focus, or even sometimes it's just a bachelor's, like an electrical engineer, and they will assist the patent prosecutors with, you know, that may not have that. The technical expertise. That's a needed, you know, particularly for, like, a client that does a lot of this prosecution, that if we need that expertise in the office, that will be. That was really helpful to us. You're not bothering the client or the inventor. Constantly explain this. We need, you know, we need more definitions here. We need to rewrite this section. So those. That's an opportunity. What I would be a little bit better is to go ahead and take the patent bar exam. And so what this is, is the United States patent and Trademark Office. It's called the USPTO, and so they allow anyone with a technical degree to get registered if you pass this exam, and then you are licensed to practice before the patent office. So it's called a patent agent is the title. And so you could, you know, take a. I would recommend, you know, taking a study course, and you can take the patent bar. And if you were a patent aid, patent agent, law firms will hire you to literally do what the attorney patent prosecutors do, and you will just prosecute patents all day with the. In front of the USPTO. [01:02:14] Speaker A: Excellent. I remember you and I had spoken about some of those opportunities, and so I wanted to get that in front of people to say, again, here's an opportunity if you want to use this knowledge that you have just maybe in a different way, you know, outside the laboratory. And I guess for you, and I know we're coming up on time, but this is. This has been such a fascinating conversation, Melissa. I I feel like I have so many more questions I want to ask you, but let's quickly talk about patents themselves, because a lot of people in the lab, maybe they have a new knockout mouse that they've created or a new cell line or something, a piece of IP that they think could be patentable, and maybe that's not something. Again, a student might not be thinking about, but if there are people who are listening who maybe think that they have something that's patentable, can you give some very, just high level advice on what they should or should not do with that information? [01:03:23] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think for anyone that's in the lab, research and development, first thing is to ask these questions and understand this before you even set foot in the lab. It's something that was never talked about through grad school or more of my time in the lab. No one even mentioned this idea that you should. If you have an idea, you need to apply for a patent before you disclose it and that, you know, our immediate reaction would be like, oh, my God, but we have to publish this. Yes. No, you publish that tomorrow, but you just need to get the patent application in today. And so when you're asking about an idea, it's probably too late. But learning about it before you even set foot in the lab is. Is the best advice. And, you know, any. Any university or company probably has either an in house attorney, a tech, trans department, that they. They will be able to answer all of the questions for you. Most employment agreements, whether you realize it or not, have, are going to have a clause in there that you're going to assign your ownership rights to them through for the patent, if you would, you know, if your idea is patentable. And so you need to talk to those people. And if, you know, if you're at a really small company, then you can just reach out to an attorney where we receive calls all the time from scientists that maybe just have a startup company and they have questions. And, you know, client counseling is one thing that we do, so always happy to discuss that. And we also have a blog that's called IP Law Watch. So you can find a little bit more about IP and definitely just do your own personal research. But talk to your attorney or department. [01:05:54] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's funny how, you know, for someone like you, it kind of just rolls off the tongue, like, yeah, you just talk to your attorney. But again, for a trainee, it sounds very intimidating, you know? So I just thank you for taking some time to be here and maybe make that seem, um, a little less intimidating. Certainly, you know, a lot of work to get to that point. But, I mean, it may be a little less scary, a little less unattainable. [01:06:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:26] Speaker A: What, what else would you like to share with our audience about you or studying law patents? Is there anything else you want to share with everybody? [01:06:35] Speaker B: I think for someone that doesn't have, you know, for someone in the sciences that's thinking about, you know, is this, is this a possibility? What's, you know, what's it like on a daily basis? You know, it's a lot, it's a lot of work to go through law school, but, like, you know, the, my one mentor said, I mean, four years is gonna, it's gonna be four years down the road one day, and what do you, what are you going to have to show for it? But, so, I guess, you know, on a daily basis, I do just so many different things. Every day is a little bit different. I get to work with a lot of great groups of people. Our particular firm is kind of globally integrated. And so even before the pandemic, I was working with attorneys in several of our offices. I was on a team in Austin. I went to the federal court down there, and I worked with a group in our Seattle office, and in our New York office, I worked on a matter that was out of our Berlin office. So we were dealing with european patents. And it's just, it's great to have so many different people, and the collaboration is just more, there's more interactions with people than I ever had in the lab. And so I really, I really enjoy that. And then, you know, that there's other opportunities that I didn't even expect were going to be available. Like, for example, our firm really tries to promote and tries to encourage the attorneys to do pro bono work. And so when I was a summer associate, I helped with an asylum case, and this particular case had moved to, they were trying to deport this individual. This is a woman from Cameroon. And so when it's at that stage, it's actually an immigration court when they're trying to remove someone. And so her case had been going on for, for several years when I came in. And so I helped write the brief for final brief before she was going to go into immigration court. And they were going to have this hearing and decide if she should be given asylum or she's going to be deported back to Cameroon. And her, for her case in particular, she was seeking asylum for political retribution because of her sexual orientation. And so what I had to do with writing this brief, and since I was going into patent law and I was a little surprised, how am I going to write this brief for immigration court? No pressure, right? I can go back to my notes from one class, a couple lectures, but the organization that helps us, I mean, they gave you a template, and then they, of course, looked it over, revised it, redrafted certain sections. But I got to meet her. I got to hear her stories. What had happened to her. One of her partners was actually killed in custody. And so it, to be able to be a part of that was just something that I was not expecting. And, you know, we, it turns out that the, her hearing had been moved to, I think it was September, after I finished my summer program. So I drove up from Indianapolis to go to the hearing with the attorneys that I had worked with in the office. And, you know, she was the witness, you know, the only witness there. And the judge had specific questions for her, even. It was more casual than you might think. But she, at one point, the government, the attorney for the government was kind of questioning whether some of these things that she had alleged actually happened to her. And there's one point where she was going to take off her, like, her sweater to show the scars. And at that point, the judge, it was a female judge, immigration judge, and she said, you don't have to do that. And, you know, at that point, we, we kind of knew that, you know, this is serious, and this did happen to her. And so it ends up she, she got asylum. The, you know, the judge said it right there, and, I mean, we were all crying, and it was just. That's something that I just didn't know that I would be able to be involved with. And it's amazing. And so to be able to have, you know, a great career, actually, this pays well. A lot of opportunities work with great people, but also get to give back like that, it's phenomenal. [01:12:32] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. Wow. And that's a long cry from investigating a sub part of one protein and one ion channel and one disease. I mean, you're so far removed from the actual patients and the actual people impacted, so I don't think. I cannot top that. That. What an amazing way to end this, this episode. Melissa, thank you so much for your time and your wisdom. Where can people find you if they want to learn more about you or your career path? [01:13:03] Speaker B: So you can look me up online. I had LinkedIn or, you know, or my firm has a. A page that lists my bio, and so you can feel free to contact me. I'm always happy to talk with young female scientists that are in the same. Maybe in the same position I was back then, so don't hesitate. I'm always available to talk to my fellow scientists. [01:13:36] Speaker A: Amen to that. Melissa, thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate it. [01:13:41] Speaker B: Thank you for having me. [01:13:52] Speaker A: I want to thank Melissa again for her time. I hope that her story was as inspirational to you as it was to me, and thanks for listening. We'll see you next.