Be Bold - With Dr. Gertrude Nonterah

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hello, and welcome back to the Bench to Boardroom podcast. As always, I am your host, Cynthia Steele. And today's guest is the bold PhD herself, Doctor Gertrude Nantra. So I got to know Gertrude's work both through her YouTube channel as well as through her the bold PhD newsletter, which she sends out weekly. But her story is really remarkable in that, like a lot of other people, she found herself needing to change jobs during her postdoc because her project that she was working, working on, ran out of funding. No fault of her own, but she had to adapt. And so she eventually became a freelance medical writer. And she did that by creating a website, creating a brand, starting her own freelance writing company, and just kind of taking it from there. And the thing that she really likes to emphasize to everybody who listens is that, again, like I've been talking about before, there are things that you can start doing while you're training to help you find a job in the future. And that's certainly a topic of her YouTube channel. And I encourage everyone to go check it out immediately. Google the bold PhD. I'll sit here and wait. All right, now subscribe to everything that Gertrude puts out. And now enjoy my interview with her. This is Doctor Gertrude Nantrae. Doctor Gertrude Nantra, welcome to the Bench Divorm podcast. [00:01:45] Speaker B: Thank you so much, Cynthia. Excited to be here. [00:01:48] Speaker A: So unlike all of my other guests, you and I have never actually met. I came across you and youre. We'll get to it. You're outstanding. The bold PhD services that you offer. But I really wanted to have you on today so that we could talk a little bit about this shared goal that we have of educating trainees about their ex academic job options. [00:02:14] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:02:16] Speaker A: So please introduce yourself. [00:02:18] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. So thanks once again, thank you, Cynthia, for having me. My name is Gertrude Nontra. Most people just call me g, and I basically stumbled into this space of talking about careers outside of academia somewhere in 2020. So I finished my PhD in 2015, and at the time, I went straight into a postdoc about two years, maybe almost three years later. However, we run out of funding, as you know. You know, research has a lot to do with funding, and because we run out of funding, we lost our jobs. My whole lab, we were laid off, basically. And I came home and thought that maybe searching for a job would not take me for another job, would not take me that long. But it ended up taking me about 18 months to find another job. And during this time, of course, and maybe we'll talk a little bit about that. It was a time of reinvention and figuring out myself. And I built a freelance writing business that helped me end up, you know, in medical communications. But I. It was a trying time, you know, to be looking for work and not finding work. And so once I navigated those waters and came out the other side, I was like, I bet there are so many people that don't know this stuff. And so I began to talk about it, and surprisingly, people started to come out of the woodwork and say, thank you for sharing that. And that's basically how I got started. [00:03:51] Speaker A: Wow. And I know one of the things that you emphasize, and I really like this, is basically you should be looking for your next position now. [00:04:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:01] Speaker A: Right. Why do you think that's so important? [00:04:04] Speaker B: So, you know, I've talked to a lot of academics. I've talked to several, maybe close to 100. Right. For my own YouTube channel, for some projects I've been working on. And in every account, it takes people a minimum of three months to find a job. A minimum. Right. Um, and for a lot of people, sometimes that I, the longest I've heard somebody say it took them to finally land a job in outside of academia is two years. So just take that wide berth, right, of three months to two years. That tells you that you're not going to start looking for a job today and find it tomorrow, right. The sample size is still small, but even from this small sample, the likelihood that you're going to apply for a job today and find one next week, especially in 2024, it's not going to happen. So the earlier you start the process of applying for jobs, of talking to people, of even learning the lingo, right. The earlier you start, the better I can tell you. I can share a quick story with you today. I actually talking with somebody who went straight from her PhD into an application scientist role within industry. And I was asking her, you know, what was the application process like? What was the job search process like? And, you know, she told me something incredible. She said, well, I knew going into my PhD, I didn't want to work in academia. So right from the get go, I started setting up conversations and laying on a foundation that would help me get this type of job right after school. And truly right after school she got a position. But that wouldn't have happened if she hadn't been laying a foundation all throughout her PhD. [00:05:57] Speaker A: I love that because that's a question I ask a lot of my guests is, you know, for example, if you know that you're interested in a career in medical writing or career in medical affairs, or if you're interested in bench science, any sort of industry career. What can trainees start doing now to prepare themselves for those career paths later? And usually it comes down to introduce yourself. You know, when you go to conferences, go to the booths, make your connections. No one minds. I emphasize this all the time. No one minds. If you go up to a booth and you introduce yourself and you give them a card and say, hi, I'm Cynthia. Can you tell me about your company? Chances are, and we've. I don't know if you've been, but I've definitely been at those booths. And if we're not talking to anybody, we're bored. So, yes, please come and talk to us. Same thing with the customer service people. They'll help you troubleshoot your assays. I talked to a lot of people at different antibody companies about my western blots, and there's a million different ways to make connections. But I love this idea that if you know right away going into it, there are things that you can do, so that way you're not caught flat footed on the other side. [00:07:08] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I love what you just said about conferences. People underestimate how powerful these in person meetings are. I know because of the pandemic, a lot of us have or choose, you know, virtual experiences, which is fine. I get it. For some people, they are sole income earners, and if they fall sick, that will be a challenge for them. But I find out at these in person events, like Cynthia is saying, go up to these people and then build that connection. And one of the things I've learned is the power of informational interviews. And so even, like, you gave your card, right? So you could give your card, but you could also say, hey, after this meeting, would you mind us connecting on LinkedIn? And I just would like to learn a little bit more about what you do. Actually, this wasn't a conference, but it was a vendor event. When I was a postdoc at UC San Diego, we had. We used to have vendor events, and so all types of biological biotech companies would come with their wares, right, to display. And I remember walking up to, what was she? She was. I don't know if she. I think she was a field application scientist. And I asked her, I was like, so what do you do? And she was like, oh, and back then, as a postdoc, I didn't get it. I was like, oh, okay, that's cool. Like, you go to, like, vendor events and then show the instruments, whatever. But that was the beginning. That was one of the first times I had actually began to think, wait, what do these people actually do? So if you're listening to this, then, you know, let your son, your heart of curiosity, a PhD, right? And so you have a lot of curiosity and be like, I wonder what they do, and start to ask questions. You'll be surprised as to what you learn. [00:09:02] Speaker A: Oh, totally. Now, one of the first, I think really one of the first articles of yours that I read that really struck, that's really struck with me was how to show that you're a self starter, you know, because all employees, they always, all employers, they always say, well, we're looking for someone who's a self starter, you know, and certainly if you're a PhD student, chances are you kind of already are a bit of a self starter, right? Because I don't think anyone would say, yes, I got my PhD by my mentor or by, like, my lead tech holding my hand the entire time, you know. You know, you brought up some really excellent points, like, organize events. They don't have to be academic events, but if you're a member of a society at your university and you run for office for that society, or you organize things in your community, or you do what you did, start, just start writing, start writing blog posts, start writing LinkedIn articles, etcetera. And I want to take that a step further and say, going up to people at conferences and just taking that initiative, like you said, that shows initiative, that shows that you're a self starter, that shows that you're motivated, and all of those things can really put you on a good foot before you've even started, like the formal application process. [00:10:20] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And then another thing about being a self starter is it allows you to, you know, as wonderful as your research, your research is and might be, people in industry, unless they are scientists, don't, especially the recruiters, they don't always understand what your research means. And so going the extra step of putting that into layman's terms of creating a portfolio, when I wanted to move into medical communications, I ended up doing freelance writing. That was something I self, I self started and then I created a portfolio of my own. I did a lot of self education. And when the time came for me to get that full time medical writer role, it wasn't, it wasn't as difficult, because these people, you know, the people I interacted with, they saw my body of work, right? And so creating a body of work that is not strictly academics, academic, and that you can, you know, create a portfolio of around. People have asked me, do I think PhD should have a website? I think you should absolutely have a website. And you should have LinkedIn. Right? LinkedIn. I think everybody should have that. And you could definitely put a portfolio there. But a website is something that you own. It's not a third party, it's not a third party product. So you own your website, you can control your website. You can control the narrative from your website, and of course, you can use LinkedIn and such as your outpost and I and stuff. But I think that even having a website is a sign of you being a self starter. Right. And putting your work out there. So this is one thing I also encourage people to do, is create a portfolio show, translate your skills into a portfolio that your future employer is going to understand. [00:12:23] Speaker A: That's a phenomenal idea. I had never thought about starting a website, but, yeah, I mean, squarespace isn't expensive. I mean, any of these, any of these platforms. And, I mean, I kind of sort of designed a squarespace site for bench to boardroom, and my husband helped. And trust me, if I could do it, like, literally anybody could do it. [00:12:43] Speaker B: Absolutely. So there's so many. Back when I started creating websites for my own, like, little side projects, there weren't this many tools for you to easily create a website nowadays. Super easy. And you can do it within like, a day or two. And so I highly encourage people to do that and to use that as a great personal branding tool. [00:13:06] Speaker A: Absolutely. That's amazing. That's a fantastic idea. So I want to back up a little bit because I usually start with people's origins, but you and I dove right in. So what was your dissertation topic? What did you study? [00:13:18] Speaker B: Yes. So my dissertation topic looked at a bacterial protein. It was a bacterial amyloid produced by enteric bacteria. And this bacterial amyloid interacts with toll like receptor two. Toll like receptor two is an immune receptor that can be found on your immune cells, but also on your. On the lining. On the epithelial cells lining your guts. [00:13:47] Speaker A: Okay. [00:13:48] Speaker B: And so the idea there was that this bacterial amyloid, which was produced by some of the microbiome bacteria, could interact with toll like receptor two to help promote gut homeostasis. So think of probiotics, right? I know that these days they're not such a craze, but let's say ten years ago, probiotics were all the craze. Right. I. And for good reason. Right? Because probiotics do keep you healthy. But we. Until then, the four mechanisms behind why probiotics are so helpful wasn't really understood. And, like, receptor two emerged as one of those immune receptors that might play a role in that. So my work was really looking at this bacterial amyloid and signaling through tolac receptor two and seeing how it could heal the gut. [00:14:49] Speaker A: Oh, how interesting. And see, and then you did a really good job explaining that to someone who's not at all a micro immuno person. [00:14:58] Speaker B: So. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was, it was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun. So also, think about, one of the things we were thinking about at that time was also how this could be therapy. I don't know if preventative or curative, but therapy for people with, like, Crohn's disease, people with those types of inflammatory bowel diseases, how, you know, maybe drugs that targeted toll, like receptor two could help them, you know, so it had definitely had wider impact. [00:15:32] Speaker A: Well, yeah. Do you know if that's advanced at all? Have, has anyone pursued that? [00:15:37] Speaker B: I haven't looked at the area very much since then. However, I know that there was a huge microbiome sequencing project, and I think that they. That's probably done by now. I just haven't been super immersed in that area since. But I do know that there's probably a lot more understanding around all the immune signaling pathways that contribute to us having a healthier gut. And, you know, we'll continue to elucidate those pathways and. But what we know is that, yes, your microbiome and the composition of your microbiome does affect various aspects of your health. That much we know. [00:16:19] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think there was a couple of major universities, including UCSD, that was doing like a huge microbiome sequencing project, I think. Right. And, and as I recall, like, over the last 1015 years, it's really turned into this huge thing because don't they refer to it as your second brain? [00:16:37] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it has implications for. I think I saw one paper where there, you know, there's implications for things like autism. There's implications for even, you know, when you breastfeed a child versus not breastfeeding a child, the difference that create in their microbiome and how that affects them later on in life. So there's been all these studies around how the composition of your microbiome affects overall health in life, you know, across your lifetime. And it's just super interesting science, for sure. [00:17:16] Speaker A: That's cool. Now, while you were working and doing your research, I asked everyone this question. Did you have like, just this fantasy job, you know, and thinking, like, the really far fetched ones, you know? Like, my. I was gonna open a cupcake shop with my first guest on this podcast, Alicia case, because cupcakes made people happy, and we just wanted to make people happy because we were always, you know, fighting with our advisors, and that just seemed like a really fun. Like, the world is not gonna end if we put too much frosting or too many sprinkles on a cupcake. [00:17:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:51] Speaker A: So, did you have anything like that? [00:17:53] Speaker B: Yeah, this is. That's interesting. So, when I was. When I was growing up, there were a few professions I wanted to be on, so I. At first, I thought I wanted to be a pediatrician when I was growing up. Right? I thought I wanted to go to med school and become a pediatrician. And then, you know, just as I went through life, I'm like, eh, I don't want it that badly. And then people used to tell me in graduate school that, you write well. I. Right. They go, you write really well. And I did well. I. You know, I. I was productive with my research and published several papers by the time I was done my PhD. But I didn't really enjoy research, but I enjoyed the writing and the communicating part of it, which is probably why I ended up where I am. So I think maybe the only time I came close to having something that was a dream job was when I began to think of people who write for a living. I feel like, yeah, we so cool to write for a living. Right? And interestingly, that's what I do now. [00:18:58] Speaker A: I love that. So, you always. So, you've always enjoyed writing? [00:19:01] Speaker B: I've always enjoyed writing, yeah. [00:19:03] Speaker A: Yeah. That's awesome. I was always one of those kids that would, like, buy a journal on, like, January 1 and say, okay, this year. This year, I'm gonna do it, even if it's only half a page. I'm gonna. I'm gonna record it. I'm just not good at it. I don't have that kind of patience. I don't know. I just don't. I'm not. I'm not that. I'm not that good at. And if I. If I actually set my mind to it, I can do a decent job. But, I mean, I don't know. I just. There's other things I'd rather be doing, so. I always admire people who genuinely enjoy writing. [00:19:38] Speaker B: It's. It's not something that I do. You know, you bring up a really good point. So, I was having this discussion recently with. With somebody about how our educational systems. It doesn't matter. Where in the world? But most educational systems put an emphasis on us trying to be strong in the things we're weak at and not trying to reinforce the things we're actually good at, which I think ends up hurting us and ends up messing with our minds. And here's what I mean. Messing with our minds. We begin to think, oh, I do this thing naturally, so maybe that's not as important. But this thing that I struggle with. Let's say you struggle with math. Let's just start like, okay, that's my personal one. I struggled with. Was physics okay? So I was okay with bio. I was okay with. I'm kind of okay with chem. Everything else was okay for me. I was really good at English and writing and that stuff. And then there's this thing, physics, and I'm like, I don't get it. But then in order for me to, like, go through my biology program, I had to take physics. And I always trying to work at becoming better at physics. And I think I ended up getting maybe a b in both the physics class I took. And that was, like, my best effort, right? But now sometimes I think about it, and I'm like, what if? From the beginning, when I discovered that I was maybe some adults in my life, teachers, whoever said, oh, this child is good at writing and expressing herself, so let's find ways for her to explore that more. I know the way our educational systems are built. They are not built to individually educate. They are built to mass educate. And I get that. But I think that because we do that, a lot of people end up. Unless you're super exceptional, unless you're like a prodigy, a lot of the time, you end up forgetting about or completely disregarding the things you are really good at and try and spend, like, an inordinate amount of time trying to get better at things you are not just good at. And I think that hurts more than it helps, because then you're like, oh, this is how people end up choosing college majors that they shouldn't choose. Because, like, well, if I go do an engineering major, maybe I can prove to myself once and for all that I'm good at physics. [00:22:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:20] Speaker B: And maybe that's, like, the worst path and maybe should have chosen to go make cupcakes. [00:22:28] Speaker A: You know? The world needs. The world needs cupcake bakers, too. [00:22:32] Speaker B: The world need good cupcake makers. You know? So. [00:22:38] Speaker A: That'S a really good point that you're making, because I would go one step further and say, think about how much less money college education would be if we weren't also forced to take a lot of these extra classes so that we have this very well rounded education. You know, I could not tell you honestly, because I also had to take physics. There's a lot of parallels here because I also hated physics. I was terrible at it. I had two different teachers. Neither of them could really make any of it make sense to me. And I think we just left. I did with leave office hours, just completely discouraged. But if I hadn't wasted so much time trying to grasp physics and I got to spend more time studying biochemistry, which I really enjoyed, or cell biology, which I really enjoyed, and pursuing my music major and things like that, I mean, I think things could have. I could have. I could have used more brain power on things that could have maybe helped me later on in my career. But secondly, I mean, if they just took some of those extracurricular credits off of the requirements, I mean, that's hundreds of dollars per credit hour that you're saving. [00:23:49] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, in a way, I get why that ends up being the case. Right. Because at least, like, try it, right? Yeah, I think that, you know, so I get that. The case for a well rounded. A well rounded quote, unquote education. I think, with what I'm saying, I'm. I'm thinking more of. I wish we would be more encouraged to pursue the things that we're really good at. Right. It's like if somebody. If, like that teacher or whoever recognizes that this kid is really good at this instead of us making everybody the same. And I know that this is not. This is a very idealistic of me saying all of this, because I know that educational systems are not built like that, but I feel like that would. We would have more creatives who embrace or more people recognizing, like, their greatness early. And also, I know that society doesn't reward every profession the same way. If that was the case, then you could pursue anything and make money. But we all know that that's not true. But still, I've seen people who wear in medicine, and then they've quit and become artists, right? Or they're in medicine, but then they have an art side hustle, or they are a PhD. I remember meeting this PhD in, I think, cell bio, and he had become a photographer because that's what he really wanted to do. It was so wild. He had become a photographer and was making more money doing that, and so had chosen to do that. And so those things that I wish. I just. I don't know. I just wish more people would be encouraged in that sense. [00:25:41] Speaker A: I think that's a good point. And I think a lot of it also has to do with the emphasis that just society in general places on having a career, you know, like a good job, as my parents would say, you know, because, I mean, I. When I was in, I want to say junior year, sophomore year, junior year of high school, I became absolutely fascinated with all aspects of massage therapy. I don't know what happened. I bought a book at the bookstore, and it had all the different kinds from, like, swedish massage, sports massage, craniosacral therapy, all of the different kinds of bodywork therapies. And I was completely engrossed. For some reason. This just completely clicked with me to the point that I actually decided not to take physics my senior year of high school. I took anatomy instead. And it just, like, set me on this track of just my love of anatomy. And it wasn't, and it was the first time, I think, that I ever really noticed that biology did not have to be Punnett squares, you know, and photosynthesis, because that's what they taught in, like, just general biology in high school. You know, everyone's got to do your. You got to do your Punnett squares. You have to memorize the stages of photosynthesis and. And cellular respiration and all those things. But this was the first time that I really thought about, like, I guess, like, application of knowledge and anatomy. And, I mean, I'll tell you, my mom, my sister, my dad, everyone in my family was like, you don't. No, no, no, no. You're not going to be a massage therapist. Absolutely not. No. You know, you're too smart. You're too this, you're too that, and, like, I. And, I mean, I was 17 years old. If no one intervened, chances are I would not have become a massage therapist. But I guess, you know, I don't have kids. I don't know what it's like to have the stress of raising kids. My. My children have four legs, and I don't have to make them into productive members of society, thank God. I. But, you know, I guess I feel like if you're already discouraging people from potential career paths when they're kids, you know, I mean, just. Just let them express themselves and. And come to their own conclusions and, you know, that there's nothing wrong with that. Rather than trying to pigeonhole somebody into something that maybe they end up not wanting to do, and then they become photographers in the end anyway. [00:28:01] Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly. At least they made mom happy. [00:28:08] Speaker A: But, you know, but going back to freelance writing. I mean, I feel like having those kinds of hobbies or these side interests actually can make for some really interesting articles. Or if you're creating a YouTube channel, you can speak about the things that you're really passionate about, whether it's cars or music or I. Your encyclopedic knowledge of movie trivia or anything else. I mean, these are, these are not bad topics to show other sides of your writing, that it's not just scientific writing, correct? [00:28:41] Speaker B: Yes, I think so. I think so. I think in building, you know, and I usually refer to that as personal branding, in building, in telling the narrative that you want people to know about you, especially in the work world. Right. You could talk about anything basically, right? Yeah. Yes. You can make your work the central focus, but it's also nice to know you're a mom, right? Like I'm a mom and. Or you're a pet mom. Right. Or you actually like to read thrillers. You know, and you may be surprised to find that you have fellow thriller reader fans who interact with you. Or that could even be the point of conversation at your next interview because you love, you know, you love thrillers. I remember for my very first science writer role, the fact that I was a mom, the fact that I had a YouTube channel that was like a center of conversation when I went for the interview, and it allowed me to demonstrate to them that, hey, I had digital marketing knowledge because that was going to be important in that particular room. So. Yes, absolutely. I'm a big advocate for. For showcasing yourself to telling that story that showcases yourself. Yeah. [00:30:09] Speaker A: And, you know, having those different topics of conversation really breaks attention in a job interview. You know, if you especially, and we talk about this, too, you should always look into the people that you're about to interview with, you know, find out a little bit about them. Maybe you're from the same town, maybe you studied the same topics, maybe you, you like the same pages on Facebook. I mean, and just having those little things to drop into an interview automatically breaks the tension, gets you off on the right foot, and then that, that can lead to something really major. [00:30:45] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. Agreed. [00:30:48] Speaker A: So speaking of the educational system, I was actually, I've been thinking about this off and on. So I have a friend, and this was literally a text conversation that she and I were having this morning. She just got her first, like, major Grant as an independent researcher, and I'm so excited for her. And she's talking about how there's people in her department who it almost seems like they're training their students with an industry focus in mind because those labs are utilizing CROs a little bit more often, or maybe they're working together a little bit more so that everybody gets more publications and there's a little bit of a different emphasis versus the more traditional path that she's been doing with her students where, you know, you write your own papers, you write your own abstracts, you do your own research, you do your own troubleshooting, and you get yourself out of these different things, and you are forced to think about the project from start to finish and troubleshoot every step of the way. And it got me thinking that at least in some ways, I feel like graduate school education should evolve to at least teach students how to write in different styles, not just how to write a dissertation, how to write a grant, how to write an abstract, how to write a paper. Like, these are the things that you're taught versus, you know, maybe you should be taught how to write a good email, or you should be taught how to give an elevator pitch and not just, you know, an hour long seminar about your research or a 30 minutes seminar about your research. And then similarly, they should be able to learn about some of the outside resources that are available to them to help make their research a little bit more doable. I guess, you know, if you don't have IRB approval. Not irb. I cook approval for a different species. I mean, you can find somebody who does. And, you know, I guess. I guess my question for you is, do you think that if you were able to advise or if you were going to advise anybody designing a curriculum or any. Any of these trainees, you know, what. What would you say? Like, should also be emphasized in graduate school to help people prepare for careers in industry. And I know we kind of talked about this a little bit in the beginning, but from a more formal perspective. [00:33:12] Speaker B: Right. And not just careers in the industry. Right? So industry is just one non academic career path that one could pursue. Right. People could pursue consulting people within government, people could work on for themselves. Right. And I think that whatever that path is, we should be designing some curriculum even before graduate school. Right. When. When people are like, bio majors. Okay. So a lot of time when I was. When I was in college, I was a premed student because I was still thinking I would go to med school at the time, but I was a premed student, and most people in my program were either trying to go to medical school, dental school, pharmacy school, one of these schools, right? PhD sometimes, but there was no real session or no real curriculum that educated us on that different paths you could potentially take. Right. Even if. So, if people didn't decide to go to graduate school, professional school, what did you do with a bio degree after you were done? Nobody told us what you could do. It was just like, okay, you're done with all your courses. Here's your bio degree. Go figure it out on your own. Right. And I think for how much money universities charge. Right. For tuition, that's a big disservice that we do to students, not telling them that these are the potential paths you could pursue. So if I was advising a university, I would say that from, and this is such a great question, Cynthia, but from the undergrad level, let's show people what's available to them. Let's not make them go figure it all out on them on their own when they've been paying sometimes, because now the average student loan debt rate is around $35,000 for four year colleges. People spend their whole lives paying off these student loan debt. The student loan debt. How come? And so this is where sometimes you have people who are outside the academic system who call education in, you know, a scam. I don't think education is a scam. I just think that we've left out the really important part, which is not the four years or five years in college, but the other, what, 45 years outside of college, people are unprepared. So. So if people are not privileged enough to get an internship, if people do not know. Sorry, if people do not know that their resources are there. I have a YouTube channel, and I constantly have people reaching out to me saying, oh, thank you for saying that. No, I have a PhD, and nobody ever told me all this stuff. And I myself, how do we get to this level? How do we go through ten years of higher ed education and people don't know that they can do anything more than this path. [00:36:10] Speaker A: Right. [00:36:12] Speaker B: I think that's a big disservice. [00:36:14] Speaker A: But, and you know, that the teachers, considering that so many of the teachers also did, you know, graduate school, postdoc, maybe they do have r zero one funding and they have their own research or they have nonprofit funding and they do their own research. But in a lot of ways, like, those are the people that you learn from immediately and you, you look up to, you know, those are your earliest mentors are not people who have outside careers. And, and I think, you know, we may have had a field trip to, you know, some kind of a chemical company that was in town or something. And, and, you know, to me, that wasn't particularly interesting, but that was one example. You know, there should have been a lot more examples of people who came in or maybe someone who spent a semester hanging out, teaching courses, talking about, you know, preparedness. And certainly, I think that that's a. That's a phenomenal idea to get people started a little bit earlier. [00:37:08] Speaker B: Yes. [00:37:09] Speaker A: And, for example, like the Society for Neuroscience, I know they have chapters all throughout the country. And as a senior in college, I went to a couple of the Society for Neuroscience meetings in Chicago because I was doing my degree in Kenosha, and I did some undergrad research. And so I knew people who would go to those meetings, but no one ever taught me to go up to the boots, not necessarily to the posters, to look at the science. But, you know, why don't you go up to these people and ask them what they do? And ask these people what they do, because otherwise, it's easy to assume that no one else is in that same boat as you. But, like, we at a scientific meeting, you'd be surprised at the number of people who actually do have PhDs. They've just done something completely different with them, and you would never know that unless you asked. [00:37:54] Speaker B: Yes. Yes. And. And as recent as 2015, when I was done with my PhD, there was. Weren't many resources. I think there was one company online that was even talking anything remotely about careers outside of academia. Nowadays, it's a little bit more popular for me to hear people talk about it, but ten years ago, almost ten years ago, when I was finishing my PhD, there was nothing. You know, I think that that's a shame, because we. According to statistics, only about one in five PhDs will land a tenured faculty position in academia. So what's. What's happening to the other 80%? We don't prepare those people for anything. We just. We're just like, okay, here's your diploma. Go figure it out. And that's my problem, is, like, for how much money we have to pay for these degrees, you would think that there should be at least preparation, some knowledge, you know, otherwise, you wouldn't have people like me who still get messages every day in 2024 from PhD about careers outside of academia. I hope that that changes. I hope that there comes a time where there's no need for people like me. But. But as it stands right now, it's a shame that, you know, after all this, I know that, you know, depending on the PhD program, maybe you got funded, but still, you went through undergrad, right? And so you probably paid a whole bunch of tuition. And I think the least I know that the response, maybe the response career development offices have always been around, but even when I was in college and grad school, nobody, like, there was nobody even sharing these resources that there's a career development office. You can go check them out. You know, see, I see some of that changing, and I'm really happy to be connected with some, some amazing career development folks who are doing good stuff at the universities. But again, you know, it's not happening at all the universities, and I think it should happen everywhere. [00:40:02] Speaker A: Oh, I agree. And, you know, to add to that, I think a lot of companies do have mentorship opportunities. They have mentorship programs, they have career development. But that's also not necessarily something that's always discussed, even at a company. And a perfect example, I think two days ago I learned that my company had mentorship opportunities. And I was like, you do? I have never, I did not know this. I've only been there for eight months. But still, you know, that was something. I think it was actually a question on our employee survey. Are you taking advantage of our mentorship opportunities? And I think I wrote, like, what mentorship opportunities? And like, in comments, like, I want to learn more. Please let me, let me know what these are. So, I mean, certainly, I guess the take home point would be these things are out there and if you're not being presented with them, then you should. [00:40:56] Speaker B: Ask, yes, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And sometimes. So, Cynthia, sometimes also, you don't even know the questions to ask, to be honest. [00:41:08] Speaker A: Totally true. [00:41:09] Speaker B: You know, I didn't even know that there was a thing as career development. I just thought, oh, I got a job and I'm there and I do a good job, and then they'll see my great work. And then I get, and surprise, surprise, it doesn't work that way, g, because, because even when you get into a company, you have, you have to advocate for yourself. You have, you have to speak up. You know, I've had to tell people, hey, you know, you know, this new job got to speak up. And they're like, ah, speak up. I don't want to be like, if you don't trust me, trust me on this. There's enough research backing this that if, especially in western societies, if you do not speak up, you will be passed over for opportunities. [00:41:53] Speaker A: Totally. [00:41:54] Speaker B: I think that, yes, we can look at. You can. You can. There's one way to look at it, a few ways to look at it, actually. One way can be like, well, that sucks. That's unfair. And what is unfair? There's plenty that's unfair in the world. There's so much that is unfair in the world, it's ridiculous. But one of the things I've learned is I can sit down and cry and moan about how unfair things are, or I can be like, this is unfair, but this is how I'm going to do it. And that's why I'm also passionate about telling people behind me. Hey, like, if I find it's sort of like we're all walking, taking a journey through a desert, and we're all out of water, and then I find an oasis, and I'm like, listen, I'm not just going to keep this to myself. I'm going to go back. And that's what really fuels me is, like, if I find something, I'm going back to tell the people because, like, it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be. I think unintentionally, a lot of information is, is gatekeep, and we don't get to hear about it. And, you know, especially with all this, you know, push towards diversity and equity, inclusion. Yes, there's that. But I find that a lot of information is still gatekept. Right. The way we break that is by, if you find out, go tell the other people. Right. Don't don't expect the whole system to just change. If you start the system, change starts with individuals. And so when I find something, I'm going back to tell the people. When I find something, I'm going back to tell the people. So that's that's the philosophy I have, that if you find out about something, go back and tell the people. And it's been interesting since I started talking about this. Now there are people that feel more empowered to ask questions and empowered to go seek out their career development people and, and so on and I forth. Yes. [00:43:47] Speaker A: That's beautiful. I mean, I mean, that really is because otherwise, and I think, again, this goes back to how we were trained in school, you don't share, especially early on, if you got research that's brand new, you you don't share that with people because you don't want someone to scoop you or you don't want someone to say, oh, that's a stupid idea, don't bother with it, you know? And you you always, always need other people, and especially women. I think we always need to come together and make sure that we are supporting each other and we're advocating for each other because it's not a fixed pie. Right. There's there's plenty, there's plenty to go around and we should be promoting each other because then we all, when we all rise, we all look good. [00:44:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And I love the fact that you said there's not a fixed fine. I really love that because that's what I really believe, that there's enough amendments for everybody to have enough and more. Right. But if we also don't tell, if we also don't, we'll find something out. Then you have an inordinate few number of people who find out about something and then they continue to live. So we have an aristocracy. Right. And those people, that's how aristocrats or aristocracies work is that you have this class of people who know the information and they know how to get the wealth and they don't share it with anybody, with anybody who is beneath that class. And, you know, and I want to see some of that broken, where you find out. So that's why I was like, I find out. I'm going to tell, I find out so that it breaks some of that as well. [00:45:29] Speaker A: Totally. But also, I mean, I think, and I grew up in a house where the people who had, were admired, you know, and it was always like, oh, wow, you know, look at, look at how much that person has or look how smart that person is or look, you know, and my house, we revered doctors because they, you know, my parents always thought, you know, they're, they're so smart and they're so wealthy and this is like what you should aspire to. But then it was never, but it was never asked. Like dig into that a little bit. Ask them for advice. Ask them how you could do that, too. It was more like try to mount this really huge step up to this podium by, or this pedestal by yourself rather than talk to these people to see if they can help you up a little bit. This idea of admiring people is great, but you have to, you can't just put somebody on a pedestal. You have to take them, you have to bring them down to you and say, okay, let's talk and let's try to figure out how we can share more of this knowledge. [00:46:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree with you in that sense. And even it's, yeah, the artificial pedestals are so true. I think one of the things I've learned is to not think of somebody. Yes, there are people that are higher than me. There's the sea. The CEO of demo, Fisher is definitely like up there. Right. And where can this, or like, if there's a vice president or director. But one of the things I'm learning is people are more accessible and open to talk about their careers than you think they are. [00:47:04] Speaker A: Totally. [00:47:05] Speaker B: So send an email, reach out to them on LinkedIn, you know, do a little bit of home, of course, do a little bit of homework. I remember somebody reached out to me to ask me about Ux research. They wanted to talk to me about UX research. I'm like, I'm not a UX researcher. So they clearly hadn't done their homework. Right, but a little bit of your homework and find out, oh, this person works here. They do this, they do that. I have these questions, and I want to ask him or her about that. And, you know, you do that and you do that consistently. Number one, you're going to learn a lot. You're going to gather lots of data points, and that's going to help you make, you know, informed career decisions. But also it builds your network. Right. If you have this conversation with somebody and then they're like, oh, you know, you're really smart. You really have, like, really great questions. Let me know how I can help you. Now, you know, you've opened a door that wasn't there before, you know? So in addition, I would add to not be. Yes. Don't put people so much on a pedestal that you are afraid to talk to them. You are actually more accessible than you think. [00:48:19] Speaker A: I think I shook in my shoes the first poster presentation that I ever did, and one of, like, the famous people, one of the famous guys in the field, you know, came up to my poster and, I mean, I. I thought I was going to vomit. It was so. You're starstruck. Oh, my God. It's this person, you know? And I think, and I guess maybe it's just a cultural thing. We tend to idolize these people who we see as famous. But then if you actually talk to them, like, it's just a dude in a hawaiian shirt. And, you know, it's just literally, this is a dude walking around in a hawaiian shirt, you know, and turns out he was really nice. And, you know, if, if you open conversations and actually, here's a perfect example. A couple months ago, my husband and I went to the Glaucoma Research foundation meeting, and one of, like, the godfathers of glaucoma research, I mean, just a superbly nice man, incredibly intelligent. Having my husband there really changed the tone for everything, because usually if I get in front of other people who share my business, we just start talking business. How's research? What's going on how's the lab going, etcetera. But because my husband was there, and my husband was talking about some of his weird hobbies, like, all outdoorsy, adrenaline junkie type things, this guy said, oh, yeah, I used to do that when I was a kid. And, in fact, we used to do this, and we used to do this, and back when I was a smoke jumper in the Pacific Northwest, and back when I used to do this, we used to dive, you know, with, like, these crazy locations with, like, just a couple of my buddies. And it blew my mind because I had never asked those questions. So, I mean, I would say it didn't take this person down a notch by any stretch, but it evened that playing field. And so even just today, I reached out to him and said, hey, you know, just so you know, I mean, we did go on that hiking trip, and here's what happened. And he rolled me back. That's amazing, you know? So bringing. Going back and bringing in your outside interests helps level that playing field. And also just keeping that mindset of these are just people. They are regular people. You end up making friends with the most unlikely people that you could possibly imagine. [00:50:37] Speaker B: Yes, yes, yes. Absolutely. [00:50:40] Speaker A: So in our last few minutes, let's talk about the bold PhD. So, I love this brand, you know? So you've talked about, you know, starting a website to build your brand, and you have a YouTube channel, you have this newsletter that I subscribe to, and you have products that you sell on your website and everything. It's really remarkable. So, I mean, I guess, how did you come up with that name? The bold PhD? I love it. Yes. [00:51:05] Speaker B: So this is, like, way, way, way back when I first started the YouTube channel, I was just thinking, what? And now the YouTube channel goes under my name. But back then, I was like, what kind of. But my website is still the board PhD. What kind of name could I give this that captures what I'm trying to say or do? And I get some of my best ideas when I walk. So taking a walk, because we're not encumbered by social media at that point or anything on our phones, because we're just walking and thinking. Right. And I think more people should do that is more time off of all the modern conveniences so that we can actually have some creative thinking. So on the walk, there was. There was a YouTube channel, and I think he's still around, called the legal ego. [00:51:59] Speaker A: Okay. [00:52:00] Speaker B: Yes. And he's a lawyer, and he comes on and he talks about, like, cases currently going on in popular culture. For instance, yeah. So, you know, there'll be a case like, you know, we've had a famous cases, right? And so he will come on and break things down for regular folks who are not lawyers. Yeah. I was like the legal ego. And so I was like, how do I combine PhD with something? And I began to think of the, and at first I called it the bold biomed because I was a biomedical, a person with a biomedical background and I thought I'd make my channel around biomedicine and careers in biomedicine and pharma. And then later on, like, I think I should call it the bold PhD because I'm going to be talking to a lot of PhDs who are looking for careers outside of not just the biomedical folks. So then it ended up becoming the bold PhD instead of the bold biomed. And that's where it took off from there. And I've come to actually really love the, I've always loved it, but I've come to really love it because now I've shifted. I used to. Even though I still have the workshops and some of my books on my website, I'm shifting more towards consulting with universities and corporations and bringing training on career design and, yeah, career design. And really think helping their students and workers think about career design, personal branding and just building a career you love. So now it's the bold PhD consulting. So it's fun because I'm like the public PhD consulting. I'm like, I own a consulting company. So that's, that's how it started. [00:53:46] Speaker A: I love that. I love that. So, so you consult, you have, what kind of topics do you talk about on your YouTube channel? [00:53:53] Speaker B: On the YouTube channel, I have various topics. Right now I've moved more towards a designing the work that you love. So talk. So more recently I did a video on, you know, how to choose a job, how to choose a career path you genuinely love. But then again, talking to PhDs, right, because we never really get those kind of talks. I recently talked about Google career certificates, right? Because one of the questions I get from people is, do you think I need another certification in order to move into this area? Because I've been in academia for all these years and I think I said, may be helpful. So I talked about certifications, but use Google career certificates as an example of that. That, okay, these are the advantages. I don't think, personally, I don't think PhDs need extra certifications. But if you want to just kind of reassure yourself, then here are the pros, you know of it. And so I did a video like that. I've talked about, what do you do when you want to go into a job, but you don't have enough experience? Or like they're telling you, you don't have enough experience. Right. Like, what do you do? Go build a portfolio. So these days, it's more around thinking about overall designing a career that you're happy with outside of. Outside of academia. In the past, I did do some interviews with people who had left academia and into non academic jobs. I also talk about my own profession within medical communication. So those are some of the topics that I've covered on the channel. [00:55:36] Speaker A: Very cool. And then you have your newsletter, which shows up in my inbox, and I always read it. I think it's phenomenal. [00:55:44] Speaker B: Yes, yes, yes. That the newsletter is a lot of fun, too. And I started writing it because, you know, social media is not always reliable. And I wanted something where I can talk to people directly or have people, people don't always want to necessarily respond to you on social media, but they'll respond to you via email. And so that's also another way. It also feeds into a bit into the business model that I have. So essentially, it's like the newsletter, the social media content, and then the paid content. So can you may encounter me, encounter me on social media. Then the next step is, hey, come on over into my newsletter. And then through my newsletter, you can learn about the things I have going on, because I'm not always going to be posting my books or the courses or the fact that, you know, I remember I recently told my email list, I said, hey, I'm looking. I want to speak. You know, I'm doing, I'm taking on speaking engagements. And so, hey, if you want to invite me to your university, let me know. And from that, I actually got an opportunity to consult with the university. So that's. Yes. So that's. That's how I think of the newsletter, is me continuing to give more value, but on a more intimate level, maybe stuff I will not put on social media, but which I think, and it's a bit of a deeper dive. And then that leads to opportunities to do business and to consult and stuff like that. [00:57:22] Speaker A: Wow. Very cool. So in the last couple of minutes, is there anything else you want to share with our listeners? Where can they find you? Where can they find the bold PhD? How can they learn more? [00:57:33] Speaker B: Yes. Well, first of all, I want to say thank you, Cynthia. This was a great conversation. Thanks for all your questions, and I hope anybody listening got some value out of this last words, I would say that, you know, if you're thinking about a career outside of academia, just know that there's so many people before you who have done it. It's nothing new. And don't be scared. Right. I'd also say that, don't be scared. Like I think, Cynthia, you said it so many times during this conversation. Talk to people. Talk to people. Talk to people. You know, if you talk to people, you will learn so much. And, you know, academia is notorious for catching up later to trends, so eventually they'll catch up. But maybe it's a decade from now, I don't know. But until then, you know, have conversations with people about the career path you want to pursue, and think of your PhD as an asset. Don't think of it. I've seen PhDs think of their PhD as a box, and I see my PhD as more of a marketing tool than a box, because out of that, you have so many skills that you can utilize, and your PhD is just that. It's just the packaging. Right? So that's how I. Your PhD is just the packaging. If you want to get in touch with me or just find out what I'm up to, I do have a YouTube channel. It's under my name. Doctor Guitride nontradition. I am. I'm also on LinkedIn, and I'm very active there. So get your. You'll find me there. And from there, you can join my newsletter. I enjoy that newsletter, and it's great. [00:59:10] Speaker A: I read it every week. It's a. It's a fantastic resource, and it's inspirational. You know, you. You do a really good job, I think, of taking all of these things that do seem big and scary to people who have never done them before, and you make it sound very approachable. [00:59:24] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:59:25] Speaker A: You know, and I think that's so important. [00:59:27] Speaker B: I appreciate that. Thank you. Means a lot. [00:59:31] Speaker A: So appreciate your time. Thank you for joining me today. It's been an absolute pleasure. And I will. I will contact you before I go to San Diego next month. [00:59:39] Speaker B: Absolutely. Absolutely. That would be wonderful. [00:59:42] Speaker A: Thank you so much for your time. I want to thank g one more time, if I may call her that. I'd like to thank her one more time for joining me today on the podcast and for sharing so many wonderful nuggets of wisdom about brand building and utilizing your hobbies and your education to your advantage when it comes to building that. The career that you truly want. So, again, you can find her on LinkedIn. You can find the bold PhD website also on LinkedIn and on YouTube. And don't forget to subscribe to Gertrude's podcast and subscribe and rate mine as well. I'd love to get your opinion. Thanks. See you next time.