Flippin the Script! Cynthia Interviewed by Dr. Diane Bovenkamp!

[00:00:05] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to season two of the Bench to Boardroom podcast. I am your returning host, Cynthia Steele. It is wonderful to be back. We have some big plans for season two and our first guest, c'est moi. Returning champion of the podcast and Canadian Treasurer, Dr. Diane Bovenkamp, has been asking for a while if she could please turn the tables on me and interview me, interview me on my own show. So I figured it was about time and I thought it would be kind of a fun way to kick off the new season of the podcast. So you're going to hear a lot about me, about how I never planned on having any sort of career in science because I didn't like science until I was a teenager. And how I ended up getting from being averse to science to being one of the biggest cell biology nerds I can possibly think of, to doing a podcast, along with millions of other people trying desperately to get your attention. But anyway, thank you to Diane for offering and I, I really hope you like this episode because that means you like me. So anyway, here's Diane's interview with me. Dr. Diane Bovenkamp is interviewing me today. [00:01:51] Speaker B: I'm in the house. [00:01:54] Speaker A: The first guest today is me. So, Diane, real quick, remind everyone who you are. [00:02:00] Speaker B: All right, well, my name is Diane Bovenkamp. I'm the vice president of scientific affairs at BrightFocus. So in that role as the chief scientist, I, I oversee all of our programs in Alzheimer's, macular degeneration and glaucoma and, and I'm a liaison around the world to scientists and basically people also giving education to people affected around the world. So I, it's such a pleasure to be here and we have so much to accomplish and discuss here today. So I'm sad that we have but an hour, but this will be so good. We have much to accomplish with you, Dr. Cynthia Steele. We want to learn more about your incredible scientific journey right through academia, industry, and beyond in a research related career. We want to know what inspired you to start Bench to Boardroom, what's your mission with the series, and maybe get a sneak peek at what's in store for season two. And most of all, we want to know more about you. We want to put you on the hot seat right now, and I'm so happy I can do that. [00:03:12] Speaker A: You've been talking about doing this for a while, so. [00:03:17] Speaker B: Little bug in your ear a while back, but you are. But no, seriously, you're so inspirational to so many people around the globe with your infectious enthusiasm, relentless optimism, and being a passionate champion for science scientists and the phenomenal contributions that can be done in industry and you know, the for profit world that operates side by side, hand in hand with academia. So Dr. Cynthia Steele, it is such an honor to interview you today. [00:03:52] Speaker A: You are, you are so kind, Diane. Thank you so much. [00:03:56] Speaker B: So since, you know, maybe we'll just start with we do this at our fast track. Can you give us a brief one minute elevator pitch of who is Dr. Cynthia Steele? [00:04:08] Speaker A: Sure. Let's see. I am the youngest daughter of two Croatian immigrants. That comes into play a lot because I think immigrants teach their children very, very strong work ethic and hold hold their first generation children to very, very high standards. I am a researcher, I'm a bona fide glaucoma nerd and I'm so happy to wear that hat. I will talk to anyone and everyone about the trabecular meshwork pretty much at any time too because it just, I love those little cells and I can't really explain why. I just do these days. So I made the transition from academics to industry. Must have been in 2016, I think about 2016. And since then I've been a, I've been a medical science liaison. I, I think medical affairs is a wonderful career path for, for some, for some who are interested in scientific communication more than the nitty gritty of how science is done. You get a more of a 30,000 foot view, which I think is very cool because it allows you to give, learn a lot about, you know, know everything rather than, you know, you can't dive into every molecular mechanism because if you do that then it's not far and wide, it's thin and deep. Currently I'm a contractor for the federal government, which if we get to it, has been its own adventure. And I've also served as a translational research director trying to bridge that gap between bench to bedside type of research. Otherwise I, I am a wife. My husband Mike is my producer. I think a lot of my listeners have met him at ARV or at glaucoma. 360. I have, I do not have two legged children. I have four legged children. A lot of them. We have three dogs and two cats. None of them are in the room. Babies, none of them are in the room with me right now, which is good. I'm a scuba diver. I crochet. I love music, I love fitness and currently living in Tampa, Florida where it never really gets that cold, which I also appreciate these days because it's February. [00:06:22] Speaker B: Yeah, I could go there Right now. [00:06:25] Speaker A: It's nice. It's laser. [00:06:27] Speaker B: Your husband also is a race car driver, right? [00:06:29] Speaker A: That's really my husband. Yes. I, I married a race car driver. He's awesome. [00:06:35] Speaker B: So that kind of mirrors how, how you like excitement and science as well as in your regular life. [00:06:41] Speaker A: So, honestly, I, I tell him all the time, and I think what he does is actually, actually inspires me a lot because. And I'm sure we'll get more. More into this, but I think women feel like we need to know everything before we dive in. You know, we need to do all of our research, and we have to really vet a topic before we're even willing to say, I do this. You know, I, I would go for jogs for years before I ever use the term. I'm a runner, because to me, runners are like, oh, they do 10 miles a day, and they are much faster than me, and they do marathons. And, you know, you. And you feel like you have to be much more perfect to apply a label to yourself. He decides one day I want to build a Volkswagen race car. And he did it, and he does it from scratch. [00:07:30] Speaker B: I've seen him. He's putting on some cool videos right now. [00:07:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. He went to YouTube. He figured out how to do it. He found the people did it in real time, gained thousands of followers on Instagram. It was like this phenomenon. Like, wow, I guess if you can do it, I can do it. So it's, it's fun to live with somebody who does not overthink things nearly as much as you do. It helps. [00:07:52] Speaker B: Yeah. Complimentary skills are good. [00:07:56] Speaker A: A hundred percent. 100%. He makes me a little bit crazier, and I make. I, I, I tamp down his, his craziest tendencies, and we meet in the middle. [00:08:04] Speaker B: All right, we'll. We'll go more into, you know, how you are in your scientific journey right now. But let's go back. Way back. Right? So how. Yeah, how did you get into science? Did you always want to be a scientist since you were a little girl? [00:08:23] Speaker A: No, no, I, I actually think I was thinking about my childhood as I was preparing for this. Like, my, I think my mom and dad both had very difficult lives as, as immigrants, you know, and as growing up on farms and everything. So my mom kind of made my childhood very idyllic. You know, we, we watched a lot of musicals. I still love musicals. You know, we, we listen to opera. We watch ballet. I took ballet classes. I, I wanted to do something in music or in theater. I played viola from the time I was 8 years old, 9 years old, something like that. I played semi professionally for a while and in college and in grad school, you know, so that was always what I assumed I was going to do. But. And I actually, I didn't even like science classes because I thought, I don't know, I. If I can't see it, if I can't imagine it, then it doesn't really exist for me, which is why I'm so bad at chemistry. I'm terrible at organic chemistry because I just, I can't imagine how other people see where the electrons are going. It just doesn't make sense to me. But, and also, I should mention I was an asthmatic kid in the 80s. So going outside in the summer was terrible and I didn't do it, you know, so I wasn't that kid who would go out into a field and catch frogs. You know, the field, the field was full of pollen and the pollen was going to give me an asthma attack. And at that time, at that time, children, we did not have good medications for asthma. We had one over the counter inhaler that tasted like death and was awful. And we had one prescription emergency inhaler and we had allergy shots and you know how much kids like getting shots. So it was, it was not a good time to be an asthmatic kid. So most of my childhood was spent inside watching movies and reading books. So I got interested in, in science when I was at music camp at Northwestern University. And I was 15, 15 or 16. And my roommate was a violin player from Wisconsin. Her name was Anne. And Ann and I became like just instant besties. We had very, very similar upbr and personalities and similar work ethic when it came to being on a college campus in the summer. And well, we could practice or we could, you know, or we could do something much more fun. [00:10:46] Speaker B: So karaoke. [00:10:48] Speaker A: Exactly. So, so we, you know, going around pretending to be college students and stuff. So we became very good friends. And Ann, unfortunately, just before senior year, got diagnosed with a medulloblastoma, which is interesting because that's very typically a young pediatric brain tumor that starts in the cerebellum and in the medulla as, as the name would suggest. But she was starting to present with headaches and she was dizzy a lot and she was having trouble with memory. And it turns out she had developed this brain tumor that was blocking her central aqueduct. But also some of those cells had migrated up the central aqueduct into her hippocampus. And so it was affecting some of her memory. So she had to have the removed. So she had surgery, and she ended up needing occupational therapy after that. Like little kids occupational therapy. Like, the square peg goes into the square hole. The round peg goes into the round hole. You know, she lost a lot of her memory. And I remember at that time, that's when it really started to click with me. If. If you're missing something, this is how it's going to manifest, you know, And I thought it was so interesting how here's somebody who was a swimmer and a violin player and, you know, just a normal teenage girl now all of a sudden had a much more juvenile mindset through no fault of her own, and. And she had to do this kind of occupational therapy. And I just realized, okay, that there's. There's something really interesting there, and I want to learn more about it. So I was supposed to take physics my senior year of high school, just like everybody else did. Thank God I didn't, because I hate physics. Sorry, sorry, engineers. I hate physics. But I end up taking anatomy instead because I was very interested in what was going on, and I loved it. I loved anatomy because again, here's something that I can imagine. And once you learn about it, you could see how it would work that way. And that was really the thing that kind of struck me. [00:12:54] Speaker B: And you could see it, too. [00:12:56] Speaker A: And you could see it, and you could actually see it. The muscles, the. And you can see pictures. Like, one of my favorite things is looking at histology of the liver, of all things, because when you look at the channels and you look at where the artery is, and you look at where the bile is produced, and I'm sorry, I don't remember the exact names of these structures anymore, But I remember looking at these and thinking, I see how I see that. I understand how that would work. That's cool, you know, And I don't know, it was my. It was my friend who eventually got me into that. And so I wanted to be a neurologist for a while. And then I still remember it must have been in 2000, when it was either in nature or in science. I think it was probably nature. They came out with a whole edition about neural stem cells, because that was the first time I remember even being in high school telling everyone, you're born with as many neurons as your brain, in your brain as you're ever going to have, and that's it. And when my cell molecular professor gave me this journal, and he said, I want you to read this, I think you'll find this really cool. And he gave it to me. And I remember I was reading as I was walking, you know, this was. This is obviously before cell phones. So I'm walking with this copy of Nature, and I'm reading this paper by. It must have been Rusty Gage about how new adult neurogenesis actually occurs. And my mind was blown. And that's when I said, okay, you know, rather than going to med school, I want to do this. [00:14:27] Speaker B: And I hope you didn't wander out in front of a car or anything. [00:14:30] Speaker A: No, I'm probably. I probably bumped into a few kids, but no, thankfully. [00:14:35] Speaker B: All right. Yeah. No, it sounds like, you know, many scientists have their superhero origin story stories, so to speak. Right. And by that, I mean there's something that happens in their life that makes a light bulb go off, right. And make them passionate about studying a particular disease or topic. So. And, you know, I know that a lot of people in our, you know, Alzheimer's, glaucoma and AMD programs, they say, you know, when we get feedback, they say, well, I went into this because we have a family member or friend who has that disease. So not only did you have a friend that had a disease that motivated you, but there was this paper that came out, so. So were there any other aha. Moments? [00:15:24] Speaker A: Well, okay, so for ophthalmology, actually, it was interesting because I. I was not interested in ophthalmology. So here's how. [00:15:34] Speaker B: Considering that you're a powerhouse glaucoma researcher slash, you know, medical liaison, slash, and you have the eye chart on the back of your wall to speak. [00:15:47] Speaker A: No, you know, grad. Grad school was. Grad school was a real challenge for me. The. Not that the classes were so difficult, but I ended up failing my comprehensive exam the first time I took it. At least at our university. We had to do a mock grant on a topic that was very different from anything that we were researching, you know, so we couldn't use. We couldn't use it for something. Some. Some other universities, and I'm jealous of this. Allow you to write a grant and then submit it as, you know, as your training grant to the nih. I think that's brilliant. We didn't get to do that, so. [00:16:25] Speaker B: I had to pick a comprehensive as well. I did mine on immunology or something. It was really complex. I just passed it myself, so. So, but, but I mean, I hear. I hear that that'll. That that's common. Right? But, yeah, so you're resilient, right? So you just picked yourself up and did you have to do the comprehensive exam again. [00:16:48] Speaker A: So a lot of things happened in 04.04 was. It was a tough year. So I failed my comprehensive exam and ended up taking a year off of school, which you can imagine my immigrant parents were thrilled about. But I ended up. But I ended up working in this wonderful lab with these three women, who, actually, two of the three ended up going into medical affairs as well, which is really funny. But we were looking at. The lab was looking at estrogen receptors, androgen receptors, and axons in the brain. And so I did a lot of imaging, a lot of. A lot of tech work. You know, they just needed some helping hands. So I took a year off. I did that. I ended up. End up moving into an apartment because, you know, I needed to just be out on my own. And that was really. That was really good for me as well. And then just before I was supposed to come back, my PI, who I was originally working with, we were working on spinal cord injury, and she came to me and said, actually, the fund, all the fundings run out. Like, my R01 didn't go through. My VA award, the merit didn't go through. Like, there's. There's no money for you to come back. And at least for this project. And she had other people, she had other programs that she. But she had people in mind for those already. And so I had to scramble to find somebody, because now, after year two, you need a PI who can fund you. The school won't fund you anymore, you know, so you. They. You get, like, your first two years free. The school pays your tuition, but after that, it's on your PI So I needed to find someone who was willing to take a chance on me and pay from day one. And so, thankfully, one of my very, very best friends, Dr. Julie Tetzloff, I believe she was episode two Julie. Julie. Her husband worked with somebody who had just gotten a grant on glaucoma. And he had literally just gotten this grant. And he said, you know, he said, yeah, yeah, I need a grad student for this. I'll meet her. Apparently, I had a horrible attitude. I was like, oh, man, the eye. [00:19:05] Speaker B: Oh, the eye. [00:19:07] Speaker A: It's gross. I don't want to work with rats and mice anymore because they smell and they bite. And, you know, I. I had an aversion to giving injections to rodents. I. I made myself do it, but, oh, God, if I. Oh, I hated it. Especially IP injections. Hated them. So anyway, and I was also pretty jaded. You know, I took a Year off, I did everything I was supposed to do, and I was going to go back to this project, and now I can't. So the story is, I, of course, I don't remember it this way, but I'm told that I came into his office and said, well, it's either you or becoming a chiropractor. And he was like, great, let's. Let's. Let's try this girl with a chip on her shoulder. And I. And it ended up working out. We. We ended up switching. We didn't switch, but we had somebody working on retina. She was a postdoc, and she said, well, we can't both work on the retina. We might be competing with each other in this program, so I need you to find something else. And that's when I started. That's when I started working on the trabecular meshwork and fell in love. [00:20:12] Speaker B: Yeah. So you were. When we were talking earlier, you're saying that you fell in love with those little guys or gals. Tell us more about trabecular meshwork, or tms. [00:20:23] Speaker A: Oh, it is this amazing little, high, little tissue in the eyes. There's a little strip of it that goes 360, and it is in the front part of your eye because you may notice that we have no blood vessels on our corneas. Fun fact. The only mammal that has a vascularized cornea is the manatee, which is. Yeah. [00:20:45] Speaker B: Which is one of your neighbors, because they're in Florida. [00:20:48] Speaker A: Yeah, we were just at the zoo. The. The Tampa zoo has an amazing manatee rehabilitation program. So you got to see all the little manatees and stuff. And they're so cute. But they are, as I understand it, they are the only mammals with a vascularized cornea. But anyway, so the cornea doesn't have blood vessels. Your lens doesn't have blood vessels. So it needs something else to feed it nutrients. And so the whole front part of your eye is filled with this watery fluid called aqueous humor. And aqueous humor is produced at the same rate. For the most part, it goes down. I believe production goes down at night and then goes up during the day. And if as long as it flows and exits at roughly the same rate, your eye pressure is going to remain normal. But what tends to happen is your drain tends to get clogged. And when I say drain, I mean usually it's the trabecular meshwork. So these cells are very unique in that they contract and relax like smooth muscle cells. This is my tm, by the way. I Always do this for people listening. I'm just making a little hammock with my hands. You know, they, they grow in these little cross bridges of extracellular matrix which they produce. So they're like fibroblasts and that they produce their own extracellular matrix. They're phagocytic, so they're kind of a little bit like macrophages in that way. They, they clean them, they, they clean their own filter as they go around. And I, I just think. And they're endothelial like, as well. You know, most people consider them endothelial like cells because they express some of those markers as well. So there's nothing like them in the rest of the body. And they're responsible for so much. And nothing hurts me more, Diane, than watching people just take one of those hook blades or take some kind of a scalpel and just cut them out and say, well, this tissue is diseased and we're going to give up on it. And one of my favorite things would be to just talk to some of these surgeons at ophthalmology conferences when I got into medical affairs and they would laugh and say, are those like horror movies for you? Then I just say, yes, yes, I get a little tear in my eye every time. [00:22:53] Speaker B: Don't tell that much, you know, so. [00:22:56] Speaker A: That I don't know. I, I just think they're absolutely fascinating. And I, I, I worked on those for all of graduate school. My dissertation ended up being on the effects of, of cholesterol lowering statin drugs on trabecular mesh cells. Because there had been a paper that came out suggesting, and population research, always you have one paper that says it's good, one paper that says it's bad. But some were considering lowering statins to actually be protective in glaucoma, in part because they can cause dilation of blood vessels through their action on nitric oxide synthase. And so that helps with blood flow, but secondly, they actually stop the production the, or really the activation of these little proteins called GTP ACEs that cause cell contraction. And it was actually that work that led to the development of a R kinase inhibitor, which is now currently on the market. So I, I became very, very interest. And so that was my graduate work, that was my postdoc and. [00:24:00] Speaker B: All right, so just in general, before we move on to post grad school, what, in a nutshell, would you sum up as what was grad school like for you? [00:24:14] Speaker A: It was hard. It was hard. It was hard. I deliberately chose the anatomy program at Loyola University back when they had one, because I didn't want to be so neuro based. The neuroscience program, all their classes began with neuro, neuroanatomy, neurobiology, neurochemistry, neurophysiology. And I wanted to learn more about, you know, the whole body, which is great, except when you have an immunology professor who makes you cry. You have a, you know, I, I ended up working in really three different labs, you know, taking a year off, which was humiliating. You know, most people don't have to do that. At least at the time there, there was only two of us in the program that ended up having to be held back a little bit and then starting over, getting interested in this new thing, learning all the literature, I guess. [00:25:10] Speaker B: What? So I just want to make sure. It's like you seem like you're very resilient and just, I'm just thinking about maybe other people who might see themselves in you and your situation. They might be in kind of a similar situation. Like, what words would you have for them? [00:25:27] Speaker A: Of course, I mean, I would say, don't give up. I mean, I didn't, you know, it was hard. I wanted to. There was a night I remember very clearly, at least part of it, Dr. Julie Tetzloff and I, again, I'm pretty sure we ate an entire box of thin mints and probably drank one, maybe two bottles of red wine because we were just so frustrated. But you know, you, you, you eat the ice cream, you eat the Mac and cheese. You do whatever you need to do to just like shake it off. You know, you go through your, your, I hate to call it this, but you, you have your pity party, pity party for one, and you wallow and then you get up, you shake it off and, and you keep going. And the best way to do that, I think, is to surround yourself with very supportive people. You know, everyone, everyone needs cheerleaders, everyone needs, you know, hype women, hype men. You know, the people who will help you pick. [00:26:28] Speaker B: There's the mentors and then there's the advocates. Right, you need the advocates. Yeah, the advocates about you when you're not in the room. [00:26:36] Speaker A: Right? [00:26:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:37] Speaker A: Yeah. And thankfully, I will say I worked for, I ended up working for someone who was incredibly compassionate of my situation. And you know, I think for the most part he was willing to meet me where I was at, you know, and say, okay, this is how we're going to do this. And you know, you have this fire in you. You know, you want to, you want to do well in this, because I don't Know, I think you just have to think about what your, what the final goal is. You know, if you're, if you, if you're just doing this because somebody wants you to, or your family expectations, believe me, I understand if you have family expectations that, you know, you're going to become some doctor. You know, you have to think about what your own motivations are. You know, you want to get your PhD to help cure disease or you want to get a PhD so you can, because that's a stepping stone to the career path that you really want. I, I think if you can keep your big picture in mind, 30,000 foot view in mind, that's really helpful. And also just having really supportive people around you who are willing to sit and say, yeah, you know what, this sucks. This sucks. We're gonna, we're gonna eat an entire box of Thin Mints and we're gonna complain about how much this sucks. And then those are the same people who will say, okay, you know what, we're, now let's walk all that off and let's talk about future directions and what could you do and how can. [00:28:06] Speaker B: We get a lot of opportunities these days? Right? So, so maybe is this the right time to ask you the question about. Okay, so how did you transition from academia to industry? And I think this is one thing that a lot of your listeners who are listening to this, they might be saying, okay, well, let's look at options, right? And there's so many more options now than when you and I were like in PhD and postdoc where you can, you don't have to feel guilty if you kind of like secretly plan like for options. Right, but how did you make your superhero transition from academia to research related or industry career? [00:28:45] Speaker A: So I love this story and I use the story a lot because it shows you the importance of talking to people. And you and I, Diane, were just talking before we started recording about how much we love talking to people and a lot, you know, if you're introverted, I'm sorry, sometimes it's good to break out of your, of your introverted bubble. And so here's what happened. I was finally invited to a meeting of the trabecular meshwork study club. And this was this, this was that we support. Right. Focus. [00:29:18] Speaker B: Support this. Yep. [00:29:19] Speaker A: Yes, you do. I, I have been wanting that invitation for years. And my external mentor, Dr. Beatrice Yu, who was at UIC, eventually she retired. And when she retired, her spot opened up because this is an invitation only meeting. And she recommended me to take her place. And I will never forget when I actually had that, that email from Grif Samples. God rest her. And we. I, I was so happy. I was so thrilled. So I got to go to this meeting to present my work and then I don't remember which day it was, but I ended up sitting down for breakfast across from somebody. I vaguely recognized his name. I saw he was from Bausch and Lom, and his name tag said New Jersey. So I'm pretty sure I made some joke about, oh, you're from New Jersey, that sucks. Something like that. And he was like, sometimes jokes are. [00:30:16] Speaker B: Good, sometimes jokes are bad. I don't know. [00:30:18] Speaker A: I know, I know. He, he seemed like he could take a joke. Yeah. Yeah, it's true. Soft skills. Assess the person that you're sitting across from. If they look like they're going to be offended, don't say anything. Just maybe just introduce yourself. But, but Jason seemed like he could take a joke, so I introduced myself and we just, we had a lovely talk. You know, just a little chit chat over breakfast. And then I presented my research, which at the time was on how treating TM cells with TGF beta, which is an anti inflammatory cytokine. It's heavily involved in wound healing and it's upregulated, it happens to be upregulated in the aqueous humor of glaucoma patients. So there's been a multitude of papers, at least at the time that was published, that show that if you, if you take a little sample of aqueous humor and test it, glaucoma patients have higher levels than regular people or healthy patients. And so I treated my TM cells with TGF beta and found out that it was one of those, like, black and white results. They cranked out this procontractile peptide called Endothelin 1. I mean, like gangbusters. It was like, when I did the Eliza, it was like nothing. And then just these, the solid blue row. I mean, it was like you could. I didn't need my. I didn't need to look at the results. I just had them right there. Just take a picture of this. [00:31:46] Speaker B: Analyze with AI or anything. [00:31:48] Speaker A: Exactly. I don't, I don't need this, you know? Oh, my gosh. It was just the most amazing day. So what I kind of took from that was, what if this is this one thing is perpetuating the other, you know, and maybe what we need to do is we need to target tgf beta signaling, which most people in our world would believe causes more extracellular matrix to be produced. And so it makes the trabecular metric stiffer. And so if it's less pliable, then you're not going to get as much drainage. And my thought was, yes, and it's also causing TM cells to crank out this thing that's going to make them contract. And now you have an even tighter mesh work, and now you have even less outflow. So, you know, I presented and got a couple people asking, you know, questions, and it was very nice. And then this guy from BNL comes up and he talked about this brand new drug that they were about to launch. The molecule's name is Latanoprostein Buenod. And basically what he said was, this is a latanoprost molecule which is going to block extracellular matrix production. And latanoprost has been clinically approved for over 20 years. God, probably 30 years now, to decrease, to increase aqueous humor by promoting, I guess, degradation of extracellular matrix. But this molecule is unique in that we have tacked on a nitric oxide donating moiety, and that's going to relax your trabecular mesh work. And I remember I put my pen down and I just listened. Oh, my gosh. You just. [00:33:27] Speaker B: The other light bulb moment. [00:33:28] Speaker A: Yeah, you just solved my problem. Because here I am saying you got this thing that causes, you know, rigidity, you know, ECM to accumulate, and then it causes the production of this thing that causes contraction. And now what you've got is latanoprost attacking one side, and then the nitric oxide happens to be endothelium's natural antagonist. And so you got a tackling the other side. And I, I remember, I, I think I talked to him again briefly after that, but then when I got home, I noticed that Bausch and Lom was looking for something called a medical science liaison. And I'd heard of the role and did a little bit of research on it. And basically they were looking for four medical science liaisons. And I wrote to Jason and said, hey, do you remember me? I. We met at the, the Trabecular Metric Study Club. And I, I'm very interested in this role. I'd love to learn more about it. So he put me in touch with his friend Melinda, who hopefully is going to be a guest on season two. I keep, I keep bugging her, so hopefully Melinda's gonna come on. So he put me for you to. [00:34:33] Speaker B: Take that, Pick up the phone and take that call. [00:34:36] Speaker A: Come on. So she was an MSL at Bausch Alum for The, for all the products for the, for the catalog. And she lived not too far from me. I was still living in Chicago at the time. So she, and together we had coffee, we talked about motor proteins, how much we love motor proteins. I just think they're fun. And, and I think she, she put me in touch with her colleague Peter and one of her other colleagues, and then both of them called me and I. My conversation with Peter was amazing because he was a pharmacist and he was so interested in my work on statins. And we just had this wonderful conversation. But see, here's the thing that I didn't know Diane. I thought, I'm just having like these fun conversations with people. Every single one of those people then wrote a letter and sent it to the hiring manager of the MSL team. So by the time I actually spoke to him, he told me, I have five letters, employees, telling me why I need to hire you. And so I got the job. I got my offer. I cried. I called my boyfriend, who is now my husband. I don't think he cried, but he was also. He choked a little because it just, the, just the way it ended up working out, it was unbelievable. But that's why, that's why I tell this story. Because you just don't know. [00:36:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:01] Speaker A: Who you're going to talk to or who you're going to meet at a conference or just happen to jump into an elevator with and have a quick chat with and exchange cards. You don't know who's going to change your life. And, and this really, really did. So I tell everybody, you have to network. Gotta network. [00:36:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, and, and it's not, it's not like people, when people think about networking, it's not like, hello, my name is Diane. Let us sit down and we'll have our, like, ding, ding, you know, like, switch. Go around and talk. No, it's just being open to having conversations. And I, I always love the. That all scientists, you know, put their pants on one leg at a time. It doesn't matter if you're talking to a Nobel Prize scientist or, you know, someone who's like a high school student washing bottles in the lab or whatever. It's like, hey, everybody's a person. They have their journey. And, you know, everyone has something you can learn from and that you can help them. And I think that, I think that in those conversations, those five people probably pick that up in you as well. And so that. I don't know what you call that. That's. Maybe talk to strangers on A bus syndrome. And I'm not quite sure, but, you know, even introverts can probably do that, too. Just being authentic and genuine. I think that's very important. [00:37:25] Speaker A: I agree. And, and honestly, it can even be the smallest thing. And I remember when I interviewed Julie, she said she did a little research on the person she was going to interview with for her industry job, and it turned out he was born and raised in Wisconsin. So was she. So the first thing she asks him is, you know, about the, the, the Packer game from Sunday. And that greases the wheels, you know, and scientists, we do this all the time. We wear T shirts with our affiliations. We. I, I love my free science T shirts. My nieces actually made me give them all away when I, when I was, was going to start dating and I was going to start dating my husband because they, they probably did make me look a little bit homeless. [00:38:13] Speaker B: Well, I like, I like to geek out. I like, that's, that's all right. But, you know, a number of times you like to geek out and. [00:38:20] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah. But, you know, when you're, when you're trying to meet normal people, maybe you don't wear a free science T shirt around normal people. You wear them around your fellow normal nerds. But, but my point in saying that is, you know, if you, if you're in the elevator with someone with a university affiliation the same as you, or, you know, a Big Ten affiliation same as you, you never know what could start a conversation. And so just say, hi, yeah, go from there. [00:38:45] Speaker B: Have, have a, have a couple of elevator pitches ready, right? And because you never know when someone say, oh, you know, what, what about you? So, and I think one of the things you talked about is you've, you've moved from one discipline to another over the years. We haven't even talked to how you went from medical science liaison to where you are now at ARPA H. But, but, you know, neuroscience to glaucoma to whole eye transplant, maybe you can tell us about that journey. And is there something natural that led you from one to another? Is it serendipity or was it like, guided. Is there something that other people can learn from you on their own journeys of everything? [00:39:30] Speaker A: You know, so, I mean, the way I got my job at bnl, I just told that story was, was, I would say, pure serendipity, but also, you know, just like the stars aligning. And I got my invitation and I was working on the thing that, you know, ended up being a drug before I even knew the Drug existed, you know, and I, and, and then through that, I mean, I just met so many people. You know, as an msl, you travel, you meet all kinds of key opinion leaders, you meet all kinds of other industry folks, even if you have one territory. So my original territory, my now husband and I moved from Chicago to Portland, Oregon because the rest of the west coast was too expensive. And we were, we were a little tired of being in Chicago. We wanted, so we wanted to change. So went out to Portland and I had the entire west coast, including Alaska, even though I never, never actually went to Alaska. Apparently not a lot of glaucoma specialists in Alaska, but I did go to Hawaii a couple of times, which was fun. Busy, Very, very busy, but fun. California, Washington, all the way over to like, New Mexico. So, you know, you travel, you meet with so many people, you go to these conferences, you meet Your, your fellow MSL's, key opinion leaders, you get to know them, you know, you, you meet other industry folks and other, you know, avenues and everything. So that's kind of where the serendipity comes in. Because when covet happened, I think a lot of origin stories start with when covet happened. [00:41:03] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's the divider. Yeah. [00:41:08] Speaker A: Actually that year. This is, this is funny because I believe the American Glaucoma Society meeting is happening right now in Washington D.C. and the last time the AGS meeting was in Washington D.C. it was in the same hotel at the same time as the Conservative political action committee CPAC conference was happening. And I think almost 90% of the Bauchin Lawn team came home with COVID I'm not saying those two things are directly associated. I'm just saying it's an interesting coincidence that, yeah, all came home with COVID and, and we were just sick, sick, sick. And it was, it was just a couple weeks after that that everything shut down. Like, that's when it really started to spread like wildfire, you know. So all travel was halted, all doctor's visits were halted. My understanding was that sales reps had to, you know, they weren't doing anything for a while. And then I think they were like dropping off literature and samples and just getting out. You know, they had maybe a couple, couple seconds of FaceTime with a doctor with like glass and masks and everything, like separating them, you know. And so we, we tried, we tried staying engaged and, you know, keeping things going for a while, but I mean, I was getting bored, you know, and, and four years into the gig, people were less interested on like, how does nitric oxide help my patients? Like, they pretty much already knew that. [00:42:32] Speaker B: They knew that already. Yeah. [00:42:33] Speaker A: Yeah. We had done a really good job trying to teach everybody about the importance of the tm. Don't just cut it out, please, you know, give it nitric oxide. Try to bring it back, you know. But now it was more like, well, why is it still so expensive? When is it going to, you know, what can I, what can I do with my prior authorization to get this for my patient? Because my patient can't even afford a, a 30 or 40 medication. I'll do my best. All. And that's, that's a huge part of being an msl, is trying to provide more scientific justification that they can give to insurance companies to say, no. This is why my patient does not need the current standard of care. They need this new thing, you know, and so, and that, and that's fun for a while, but after a while, it was getting a little tiring. So it was at that point that I ended up getting contacted by my very, my dear friend, fairy godmother Barbara Waroscopic. I don't remember which episode she was, but she's also been on the podcast. [00:43:30] Speaker B: And plug to go back and watch season one. [00:43:34] Speaker A: You should go back to season one because we had some, we had some great people, including Dr. Diane Bovenkamp, twice. This is your third time appearing on Vegetable Boardroom Champion now. So. And here's your reward. You get to interview me. But, you know, but Barb is a serial entrepreneur and she's always looking for, like, the new next greatest thing in glaucoma. And she contacted me and said, I have this new venture and we are looking for a director of translational research. And I think you'd be great at this because you're good at the messaging, but you still, like, kind of have your foot in the lab. Like, you still, you know, like, you liked your time in the lab. That's true. Okay. So I ended up going to work for them for a few years, and then, and then I made a little bit of a mistake. And I'll, I'll freely admit this because there was a role available at a much larger company, and the role was called the Director of Global Medical affairs for Glaucoma. And my college girlfriends actually started referring to me as the high priestess of glaucoma. [00:44:47] Speaker B: Which I was like, yes, religion of glaucoma. [00:44:50] Speaker A: I'm going to practice my royal ways, you know, But I, I, I wanted that, I wanted that role. I was very. This is A lesson for you kids. I was seduced by a very sexy title. I really was. And, and it's a great company. Wonderful people work there. But I thought that I was going to be able to make a relocation to Southern California work and financially we just could not swing it and that. So my, basically my contract ended up kind of falling apart because I couldn't make that work. Work. But that's where the serendipity comes back in because turns out the chief medical officer at Bao Shalom. So essentially when I was in msl, he was my boss's boss. His name is, his name is Kel Roberts. He also has an amazing podcast called On Tech and vision with Dr. Roberts. And he talks a lot about new technology in patients with low vision or no vision. And it's, it's phenomenal. I recommend it. [00:45:50] Speaker B: So anyway, the link will be in the. [00:45:53] Speaker A: Yeah, we'll put the link in the show notes and so, but, but Cal reached out to me and said, I have an amazing opportunity and I want you to be part of it. And I originally said, well, I don't know, we're about to do this program, this, this, you know, product launch and I've kind of been part of this and you know, but then, you know, when it, when it looked like things were, might be dissolving, I said, you know, let, let, let me, let's hope talk, let's think about it. And, and we talked. And he had a serendipitous moment of his own where he attended a lunch talk by the now former director of the Advanced Research Projects Agency for Healthcare, or ARPA H. And he wanted in. He said, this is a big, high risk, high reward funding program, very much like DARPA where like the Internet was invented, you know, where all the really crazy drones are invented. We're going to do that, but for healthcare. And so he convinced me to come on as a contractor. So what that means is that I am not a federal employee, but I am paid by a private entity and then essentially loaned to this agency. So that's how that happened and that's how I ended up learning more about, I mean, transplant medicine. We were doing whole eye transplants. That's one of the programs we have. We have another program that we're waiting to contract right now which is purely engineering based. And that was. Oh my gosh. That he decided, Cal decided that that was going to be a program that I helped spearhead. And you want to talk about imposter syndrome, Trying to read engineering literature for me was like trying Like, I felt like a freshman in high school reading my first Shakespeare novel. Again, every. These words don't make sense. What does this. What did. I would read a sentence. 3. [00:47:45] Speaker B: You're reading Beowulf or something. [00:47:48] Speaker A: Exactly. Like, what even is this? What is this saying? You know? So I had to. I had to Google everything, you know, like, why do you have to call it a form factor? Why can't you just call it the shape of the thing? You know, why? And, you know, a thing binds, dot, dot, dot. Magic happens at a signal. You know, like the dot, dot. Again. Yeah, I, I. If I don't see it, I don't understand it. You know, and so it was. That was the hardest, one of the hardest things that I've had to do. But I had perseverance. I. But, you know, here's the thing. I. I found people. I was. I am more than happy to be the first person to get ahead of my own weaknesses. And so I found people that studied this type of thing in graduate school or in undergrad or, you know, in their. In their work life. And I would say to them, you need to explain this to me. Like, I'm, Like, I'm in high school. I. I don't know anything about this. And I promise, if you ever have a question about the eye, I will be your person. I am more than happy to help you with that. But I. I thankfully found enough people who were willing to explain things to me and answer all of my silly questions. And. And so it ended up working out pretty well. And thankfully, we also have this lovely thing called Chat GPT, where I can say. [00:49:11] Speaker B: I was gonna say, like, ask Chat beat gbt. But you know what? For better fact checking, it's probably better to talk with, because you will make things up. [00:49:22] Speaker A: Exactly. Yes. And so trust but verify. Always. Yes, always. Trust but verify. But, you know, I. I think that if you're not afraid to, maybe shouldn't be afraid to reach out to people and say, I'm in over my head. What. What should I be doing here? What am I missing? How can I make this better? And people respect that. It's like when someone asks you a question in a seminar and you don't know the answer. Don't make something up. Tell them you don't know the answer. But you know what? That's really cool. I'm gonna look that up and I'll get back to you. People respect that much more than pretending that you have some expertise that you don't. [00:50:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, yeah. You can be found out if not now, then later. [00:50:05] Speaker A: Oh yeah. And it will come back to haunt you. So don't make things up, especially to doctors. Budding MSLs do. Never ever make something up and tell a doctor because that's going to bite you in the butt later. Say, say that's a great question. Find the paper, send them the paper. Or go through, go through medical communications and send them the answer. Don't make anything up. It's a bad idea. [00:50:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Or just couch it with. I'm not quite sure. I think this is it. But I will go and double check. [00:50:32] Speaker A: Yeah. That I use that answer a lot. I think this is it. [00:50:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:38] Speaker A: Don't take my word for it though. I will get back to you. And then, and then, and then you do that. When you follow through, then that, that establishes trust and establishes you as a trust. [00:50:48] Speaker B: A lot of times when you're, when you're not the world's expert on something, when you're explaining other people's science, then you want to make sure that you're explaining it the right way. [00:50:58] Speaker A: Yeah. And that most people, even the, especially the world's experts, they're the ones who will say, well, we don't really know. Yeah. You know, if you talk to the people who I think are just the boards of, of glaucoma, male or female, you know, you ask them a question, they'll say, well, we don't really know. And they'll give you like a, a 12 layer response about why we don't know. But someone who is very, very junior will say, oh, it's this. Because as it goes in science, the more you know, the less you know. All right, you don't know. [00:51:40] Speaker B: So I, I have a question I think that you ask every person is what would you do? What do you think you would have done? What would you be doing right now if you wouldn't have gone into science? [00:51:56] Speaker A: I was, I have had so many like fantasy jobs in, in grad school, Dr. Alicia Case and I were going to open a cupcake shop. [00:52:06] Speaker B: That was our, I would have been first in line. [00:52:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Because we would. So every year the Chicago Society for Neuroscience would have its meeting somewhere on the north side of the city. City. And that's where all the, the really nice, you know, shishi places are. And so she and I would play hooky for about two hours of this one day meeting and we would go and we would buy a cup of coffee and a very expensive cupcake from one of these like, you know, little schmancy shops and we would just Sit. And we would talk and it would always be so lovely. But you know, everyone who would walk in there would leave with a smile on their face, you know, and you're, you're there and it's pretty and it's light and there's, you know, sunshine and you're just making cupcakes and you can't do that. Wrong. I mean, you can, but not like to the level of science. So that was one idea. My lab mate Jason, Sarah Sarkey's husband Episode 3 or 4 Sarah's husband was going to open a pizza and beer business because I think every person interested in microbiology also has interest in interest in fermentation. So I was gonna help him. [00:53:13] Speaker B: People could order that for their journal clubs. [00:53:16] Speaker A: Right. [00:53:17] Speaker B: Maybe not the beer. [00:53:18] Speaker A: Right. And kombucha. How about we, let's call it, let's say kombucha instead. [00:53:25] Speaker B: Fermented. [00:53:27] Speaker A: So yeah, those are like my fun little fantasy jobs. But I mean, if I, I actually think about this a lot. If I was, if I won one of those, like massive lotteries, I really do think I would end up trying to make this podcast into something bigger. If I had the capital, if I could hire the people, I could get someone to do my Instagram posts for me. If I could have people just follow me around with a camera and like capture me doing things and posting them with some kind of inspirational quote. [00:54:00] Speaker B: I can volunteer for that. If you're at the same meeting. That's right. [00:54:04] Speaker A: Because you're an amazing photographer. Yes, that's what we would do. And you know, you could just come with me and Mike wherever we're living in that moment and whatever beautiful house we're in. And I, I would make this a bigger thing. I, and I would make it like a non profit that could provide consulting services, career consulting business for services for women and you know, host these episodes. And I'd have like a, I don't know, go around doing speaking gigs and stuff like that's nowadays. That's what I would do. [00:54:33] Speaker B: Because. Because you know what, I'd like to take your cupcake analogy. Really the main thing was you wanted to see people leaving with a smile on their face. And I would like to venture to say that that's what you do with these podcasts. [00:54:48] Speaker A: Yes. [00:54:50] Speaker B: So why did you start the Bench? Everyone wants to know this. What was the inspiration? Like, how did you, how did you start the Bench to Boardroom? And we just want to know, like, you know, yeah, like what's your reach now? And I know you want to try and expand it big time. [00:55:08] Speaker A: I would love to. [00:55:09] Speaker B: And maybe get a little sneak peek at what's coming up in season two. [00:55:13] Speaker A: Yes, of course. So I, I started this because I, I realized that this, this is something that I'm very, very passionate about, you know, and I wear my heart on my sleeve. I've been told that by many people that they would play poker with me any day, day, because they can see what I'm thinking on my face. It's just right there. So I, so I, I started this because this is, this is something that's. That means a lot to me. I. I feel like. I feel like there's so many how to succeed in business podcasts, like, for men, by men, you know, but no one really speaks directly to women and how everything is very different for us and everything's perceived differently for us. Probably the biggest impetus I had. And I. And you were definitely there, Diane, when we were at the AOPT meeting in Indianapolis and I was asked, I was so, I was so excited. Were you the one who asked me to host this table? Someone asked me, or maybe it was Cheryl Rendelman, who asked me to host this table of trainees who wanted, who wanted to pursue a career in industry. So this was like breakfast with the experts. So there was someone from academia, someone from industry. And did you do one or was there. [00:56:26] Speaker B: Yeah, Preeti and I were there. Who's also at BrightFocus. There you go. [00:56:34] Speaker A: Also a bright focus. Yeah, I need to get Preeti on. She's got a great story. So. So, yeah, basically what I did was I just, I said, okay, you know, you could start with, by asking me your questions. And the questions were kind of all over the place. Place. And so I just kind of put a stop to that and said, okay, timeout. Let me ask you guys a question. What job do you want? Like, what career path are you looking for? And they either said, I don't know. Medical science liaison, because they've heard of those. Bench research. And one person said, clinical research. And it occurred to me at that moment, they don't know what their options are. [00:57:18] Speaker B: Yes. [00:57:18] Speaker A: And if they don't know what their options are, here's my opportunity to not only talk, to not only get something out there to encourage especially young women to pursue these career paths, but also to give them an education on what their options are. And that's what I really look for. I look for. I love interviewing my friends, but I'm also always looking for people with a unique use of their Ph.D. that's why I brought on. Gosh, this is terrible. Jacqueline. Jacqueline, who has a project management certificate, or the, the clinicians who I've interviewed who have gone into entrepreneurship like, like Barb, or my friend Diva who has this crazy specialty in parathyroid surgery, and she's made a career out of it. You know, I always look for people or people in non profits like yourself, or I interviewed somebody from the Charcot Marie Tooth Foundation. You know, how, how do you get roles like that? Because I, I want them to know that it's not just these two options out there. There's so many other things you can do beyond like met talking about medicine, writing about medicine, and doing the science. [00:58:28] Speaker B: You know, you mentioned Cheryl Rowe Rendleman. She's like amazing too, as a person and just a different. She's like the CEO of, you know, a company and advises people and regulatory. It's just just amazing. Anyway, so. [00:58:42] Speaker A: Totally. Yeah, Cheryl's amazing. We love you, Cheryl. [00:58:46] Speaker B: Yes, you're here, but I think so. Okay, so, so what would you say? Here's the elevator pitch. What would you say is your philosophy or mission statement? I guess Boardroom. [00:59:02] Speaker A: Yeah, so the, the mission of the Bench to Boardroom podcast is to educate, inspire, and entertain. So I, I wrote that out because I, I did get an mba, so I did write out what my, what my mission statement was. But we want to educate and inspire women to think outside the box and pursue careers outside academia. And we also want to, you know, we want to be entertaining, we want you to learn something, but also, you know, get, get a few laughs. [00:59:35] Speaker B: Yeah. Because life is too short to be serious all the time. [00:59:40] Speaker A: You know, actually that's, that's an interesting point. So you and I briefly talked before we got started about this concept of executive presence. And I, and I suffer from this personally because I come from a very jovial family. You know, my, my sister and I constantly crack journey jokes. My dad, I don't think he has a serious bone in his body. And, you know, we're just, we're always, I don't know, we're just always laughing. We're always looking for the fun in a situation. And I have found myself kind of questioning is that okay in like a month in a senior leadership role? [01:00:22] Speaker B: You know, explain what executive presence is, though, for people who might not know what that is. [01:00:27] Speaker A: You know, I, I, for me, I think it's hard to define. I think it's just that aura that you get from someone who's in charge, you know, And I think if Everyone closed their eyes and they imagined, like a boss right now. They would probably be a very serious person in a very dark suit. These days, hopefully half of you would imagine a male, half of you would imagine a female, maybe even more females. But, you know, it's, it's. [01:00:54] Speaker B: It. [01:00:54] Speaker A: You, you get this sense that this is not. This is not someone who messes around. You know, this is not someone who plays around. You know, you, you are. It's a very serious person. And I worry, or, yeah, I worry sometimes that having this very, like, you know, upbeat, jovial personality could potentially get in the way of, you know, me advancing in my career. But I've asked people, people, you know, I've gone to these women in ophthalmology meetings, and we talk about gravitas, you know, again, that, that, that seriousness, that like, severity. And I've asked people, like, flat out, do you think I like, do I need more gravitas? And the answer is generally no. They say no, it's not that. You. It. You're serious. People can tell that you're serious. You're also fun. Like, that's your brand. You know, people can tell that you take your job seriously or you, you're very serious about the science, but you, you're entertaining. You are a good messenger. Like that, that's your brand. And so sometimes, I guess the, the moral of the story is sometimes I would think about what you don't like about yourself and realize that kind of actually is your superpower. [01:02:12] Speaker B: I also think that assumption of executive presence is based on the fact that there's only one style, one way to be a successful leader. [01:02:25] Speaker A: Right. [01:02:26] Speaker B: I think there's many different ways, and you might even have to adjust it based on the mix of personalities, the motley crew that you're leading. Right. And the mission of the organization. So I know it brighten focus. I know we, you know, we, we have a number of different audiences. We have, you know, the, the people who are affected by the disease. I don't think they want to have someone standing up in front of a chalkboard being all serious and doom and gloom. You know, we want to instill hope. When you talk to affected individuals and not talk down to them. You want to, you want to explain things in lay language and you want to kind of be upbeat. And then scientists, especially early career scientists, probably don't want to be talked down to and whatever either. So anyways, I think a lot of, A lot of us have had that. Have had that executive presence thrown at us, and it's like, well, I guess it's situation present. [01:03:30] Speaker A: I mean you wouldn't go into a room and actually, okay, I might end up taking this back. But normally you would not go into a room of very severe looking individuals and you know, be like, hey, what's going on? You know. But again, some people don't appreciate that. And, and so I will, I will tell this story from back in high school because I think this is where, this is where I learned how maybe not be. Not taking things so seriously could help. So I told you I was a viola player. And my junior year and my senior year I was invited to audition for like the state, state orchestras. So they would pick a few people from each district and we'd go down to the state capitol and we would audition for like these two levels of orchestra, like the honors level and then whatever they called it, the all star level or something. And the first year I went, I was, I was a nervous wreck and I'm pretty sure I just wore like my, my concert uniform, like my white button bound blouse and my floor length, you know, black skirt. And I was. And you know, it was like being on American Idol. You know, you walk in and everyone's just staring at you. And I was terrified. I was so scared and, and I messed up. And then when I messed up then it made me mess up more and it made me mess up more. So it was a terrible audition. And so senior year I decided that I, whatever. For whatever reason, 18 year old me decided that she had zero Fs left to give. And so I wore jeans and like, I don't know, some kind of a funky blouse. I went through like a retro phase and I had this, I had this like fishing hat, like this army green like fishing hat that I like like. [01:05:11] Speaker B: A toque or something. [01:05:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I freaking love this hat. And so I walked into my audition with my fishing hat and my like vintagey outfit and like the first thing someone said to me is, I like your hat. And I was like, thanks. And we chatted for a few minutes and you know, we're laughing and then. All right, all right, well why don't you start here? And I was like, okay. And it was an amazing audition. And that year I ranked fifth. Okay, I ranked fifth in the state. [01:05:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:05:41] Speaker A: And that's, that's, I think when I really, it kind of solidified for me. You know, as you just so beautifully said, there is more than one way to lead. And there's, there's, there's something to be said about just being Yourself. And that makes you more comfortable. That makes you more. More likely to be an authentic leader. And I think that's the most important thing. We need. We need authentic leaders. And that's what I try to do. I try to. Everything I do, I try to do it with authenticity, because otherwise it's just not believable. [01:06:18] Speaker B: Do you think that women leaders need to do something different? Are there key things that women can do to be exemplary leaders, or is it the same as for men? Have we caught up yet? [01:06:34] Speaker A: I mean, the sad truth is that unfortunately, in a lot of ways, we have to work harder. We have to show up more. We have to, you know, do the extra work. But, you know, I would wager a guess that most women listening to this right now were the ones that did most of the project and, you know, let everyone else, like, share the grade. I know I was that kid. I'm sure you were, too, Diane. You know, like, well, I have the energy and I want us to do well on this project. So, yeah, I'll just take care of it. But. But no, you know, I. I honestly think I thought about this question a lot when. When you initially posed it to me. And I think women have. We have everything that we need. We are. We have the intellect. We are compassionate. We are empathetic. We have. Because most of the time we're in rooms with men, we end up listening more than we talk, and we internalize a lot of that, and we're thoughtful. So maybe present company excluded, I've been. [01:07:38] Speaker B: Told I need to, like. Yeah, but then I don't like that because I was told when I was young, you know, children should be seen and not heard. So then why. [01:07:47] Speaker A: Whatever. [01:07:48] Speaker B: Hackles get up. [01:07:49] Speaker A: But I hate that. [01:07:49] Speaker B: But you're right. There are many people who. And I. You see that a lot of times with early career investigators, I think whether they're men or women in a. In a room full of more seasoned individuals. And you're like, a little. [01:08:03] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. And I was. But I would say what we need and this. And I say this as someone who needs it a lot, too. You need bravery. We need courage to kind of shake off a lot of those stereotypes. We need the. We need to be able to tell ourselves that whatever narrative we're spinning is probably not true, that we actually do have job enough qualifications to apply for this job or we do deserve this promotion, you know, or, I don't know, this award or whatever it is that you get, because I think we are our own worst critics. Not saying that Men aren't. Aren't too. But, you know, especially. And thankfully, I think it's changing. I think, you know, Covid and certain presidents being in charge have. Have changed all of us, and I think we're a lot more likely to kind of toot our own horn these days. I follow most of my Instagram feed is like, women empowerment, some of my friends and baby animals for a little fur baby love. [01:09:13] Speaker B: Okay. [01:09:15] Speaker A: Like, there's a baby tapir right now at the Port Defiant Zoo at the Point Defiant Zoo. And I, like, I, I find. Follow the Point Defiant Zoo or the baby. There's a baby elephant at the Oregon Zoo right now, and she's the cutest thing ever. Like, this is my Instagram feed. [01:09:28] Speaker B: You know what? That's connecting with nature. A lot of people are calm when they connect to nature. Right? [01:09:34] Speaker A: But absolutely. [01:09:35] Speaker B: But I agree with you. A lot of times we find actually with the grant applications, right, A lot of women just take them out themselves out and don't even apply, right? So you have to be brave. You have to. It's like at the Camera Club, where I'm president of the Baltimore Camera Club, and every time you put an image in, you know, you're putting it up for critiques. You're, you're, you're, you know, you're being judged against everyone else. And it's like, well, I'm here. I might as well. And so I always like saying, you can't get it if you don't ask. You just have to be brave. [01:10:07] Speaker A: You know, I will say this. One of the things that helps me a lot, and I've talked about this on Instagram a few times. But. But I swear, I think weightlifting has done amazing things for me. And, And I'll tell you why. It's because this is. It's literally showing you that you are stronger than you think you are. Literally. Because. And this happened to me just, like, two days ago. You know, the, the instructor. I'm on peloton bench to boardroom. No, I'm sorry. I'm Cynthia, TPA on Peloton. But anyway, I, I, the instructor says, we're gonna. They demo. We're gonna do this. We're gonna do this, and we're gonna do this. So, you know, grab your light weights, and I'm going, okay. You know, I'm just gonna grab fives. I just, you know, it's. It. And I do the fives, and I'm like, okay. That was actually really easy. Like, I didn't really feel anything. Okay. You know, What? I'm gonna do the eights. And I did the eights. Like, oh, I think I could do the tens. And so, like, literally it, it's like quantifiable, like, whoa. I can actually do more than this. I don't actually feel anything when I'm, when I'm doing it with a lightweight. So you realize you are stronger than you think you are, and it's your brain telling you you can't, no, you can't do this. Just, just, just, you know, bow out of this one. And then you realize, actually I am a lot stronger than I think I am. And you know what? I'm gonna go for it. Yeah. I'm telling you, I think it's like magic. [01:11:35] Speaker B: That's, that's good advice for all of your listeners who are trying to decide, should I take the leap into research related career? Should I apply for that? I mean, there's no harm in just going for an interview. [01:11:47] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, apply. [01:11:49] Speaker B: And a lot of people go back and forth. [01:11:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:11:52] Speaker B: So, so I think that, you know, you know, what are the things that make, I mean, you're so, you know, as I was saying, you're so resilient and persistent and passionate. What are the things that, and you know, as you said, there are some times of uncertainty right now, but what are the things that make you motivated to get up in the morning and make a difference in the world? [01:12:18] Speaker A: I mean, so the first thing I'll say is that it doesn't happen every day. You know, Diane, maybe you remember, maybe this is probably over most of my much younger listeners heads, but do you remember the cartoon Dexter's Laboratory? [01:12:31] Speaker B: Oh, no. [01:12:32] Speaker A: Okay. This is my sister and I used to watch Dexter's Laboratory. It was on Cartoon Network. And he was like just this, like, short little kid with like these big glasses. It was just adorably animated. But every day he would wake up and say, what a fine day for science. Oh, and okay. [01:12:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I remember seeing that quote. Yeah. [01:12:52] Speaker A: And he had this very different, ditzy sister. And so my sister and I would joke like, she's, she's Dee Dee, I'm Dexter, you know, but, you know, but obviously I don't wake up every day going, what a fine day for science. You know, so for, for a while there, and I was very candid on my Instagram feed. It was hard. It was really hard. That, that election loss was heartbreaking. I, I, I still think Kamala Harris is so incredibly inspirational. I think she's intelligent. I think she's Funny. I think she's joyous and beautiful and just. She was like an authentic, you know, so authentic. And I just. I loved everything about her. And so it was not just the fact that this person that I really did not want to have win, won, but it was that she lost. This incredibly accomplished, qualified, intelligent person lost a presidential election. And it was. It broke my heart. It really did. Still breaks my heart. But I think on days like that, you just kind of go back to what I said earlier. You just do what you need to do. You know, if you need to eat the Mac and cheese, you eat the Mac and cheese. You need to go off social media for a few days. You do it. I literally, I. I own a color. I own a coloring book, and I bought a coloring book and, like, 72 colored pencils. And sometimes at night, I will turn on the Great British Baking show because it's hard to be in a bad mood when polite people are making beautiful desserts and I color a picture and I put my mind in a nice little happy headspace. Yeah, but. But what. But what motivates me is honestly the work that I see other people doing. There's a reason why my Instagram feed is full of. It's not full of, like, diets anymore. It used to be. It's not full of, like, fitness influencers like it used to be. Now it's, you know, women who in and who. Who run the show. [01:14:51] Speaker B: They. [01:14:51] Speaker A: They invest their own money, they run their own companies. They are out there giving talks and inspiring people to live their best lives. And I think when you surround yourself with other people who inspire you, then it's hard for you to still sit down and not do anything. It makes you want to do something, too, even if it's just taking that post and amplifying it like I did the other day on LinkedIn. The stand up for Science march is happening next week, and all I did was take that picture, put it on LinkedIn, and it's been shared four times. I mean, wonderful that that motivates me. And. And, I don't know, I think. I think seeing people, talking to people, understanding the impact that this little thing that I'm working on, nothing makes me happier for anyone listening. If you see me at arvo, oh, please, God, come up to me and say hi. I. I cannot tell you how happy it makes me when people say, I loved this episode. It just. It makes my entire month, my year. And I. I just like knowing that. That what I'm doing here for. That I do for Fun is actually making a difference. So that's what inspires me, I think. Other people. Yeah, other people inspire me. [01:16:04] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I think, I think you're like me, you. Not that. That I'm the way that you should do things, but connector. Right? We're connectors and supporting other people and promoting other people. And so I think. Yeah, so I think. Is there, you know, is there anything else that you think that the woman and in men, I guess, listening to this podcast and other leaders in science, what. What can we do to try and support science? And maybe this, this podcast could, could help to support science? [01:16:44] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, any mentor out there who is supporting grad students, I mean, you're doing it. You're doing the thing, you know, and please encourage your, your students, your trainees, your postdocs to consider all their options. Don't make it feel like it's a cop out. It's not. You know, I think, you know, a lot of people felt like, well, I have to go into industry because I, I couldn't cut it as a, As a, a researcher in academia. That's not true. You know, everyone has skill sets. And I will, I will say this. My Niece is a PhD student at Marquette University, and she and I were talking the other day about how her mentor told her that she, she's been winning a lot of awards and like, fellowships and stuff, and apparently she's just an amazing presenter. And I wish I lived Milwaukee so I could see her. But. But her advisor told her that her superpower is in scientific communication. And I love that, I love that that got pointed out to her. And she said, look, no offense, your work is interesting, but your gift, your superpower, is that you're able to draw people in when you talk about your work and keeps them interested and it, you know, excites them. And that's why you win all these awards. And, you know, I, I think, please look for your superpower, look for your students superpowers and encourage them to go after it, because there's, There's a lot of opportunity out there if you, if, if you do that and if you encourage your students not to try to fit in the same box that you did, but use the skills that they have that come naturally to them, them to, to build a career, because there's, it just makes it so much more joyful. [01:18:38] Speaker B: Well, and even people that don't have a supervisor or a supportive supervisor or whatever, look for your own superpower, like, absolutely. And do a self assessment. I think, ask friends, go in Information, interviews. Just look, you can maybe journal it out a little and, and see what do you, you ask yourself questions on what do I enjoy doing, whether it's in science or not. And a lot of times it'll be like, ah, okay, so for me and you, we love talking to people. So you obviously want to go into a profession where you're talking with a lot of people. Absolutely happier. But, but to realize that everybody can do everything. You know, kind of like those Myers Briggs tests where they say, oh, you're like, whatever, but you can do any job. It's just, just what you prefer, right? [01:19:27] Speaker A: Yes. That is a very, very good way of putting it. Don't think of yourself as, you know, do I qualify? Can I do this? You can. You totally can. Do you want to? [01:19:37] Speaker B: Yes. [01:19:38] Speaker A: I love that. [01:19:39] Speaker B: Yes. You don't have to be unhappy in your job. [01:19:42] Speaker A: That's an old trope too. And I've talked to people who are, you know, maybe in a job they don't really like right now, and maybe now is not a good time to switch the thing that I will tell them to do. And another reason why I ended up starting Bench to Boardroom is then do something in your personal time that gives you a lot of fulfillment and, you know, like photography or, you know, and, and especially people who have young kids and stuff. I know that's hard, but I mean, every professional organization has volunteer opportunities. Every, you know, nonprofit has opportunities to donate your money, donate your time, serve on a committee. You know that. That's how I ended up serving on the grants committee for the American association for University Women. I do that every year. It's a lot of fun. You get to, oh my God, you read the most incredible grant applications from the most ambitious young women you've ever heard of. It's unbelievable. Their stories are incredible. And you do things that fill that void, you know, in you. But maybe it's not, you know, what pays the bills, but you still get to do that too. So. I, I, I don't know. We had so many hobbies as kids and I feel like, you know, when you, when you get older, you're, you don't really have hobbies anymore, but yeah, there's still time for that. [01:21:00] Speaker B: Bring it back, bring it back, bring it back. [01:21:02] Speaker A: Bring that. Hobbies. [01:21:03] Speaker B: Well, and you know, might I suggest, if you haven't already done it, you can do the arvo has best talent, you know, with your viola. Send in a video if you're doing that or something. [01:21:16] Speaker A: I don't think anymore I'm Very, very rusty. But I will be at arvo. I will be reviewing resumes. I've also volunteered to look at some posters. So, yeah, those who attend, please, please come say hi. Great. It makes my day. [01:21:32] Speaker B: So I think the last question I have is, like, is there anything else you'd like to say to our listeners before we go? Or maybe you're reflecting back on something we discussed for the last hour and 20 minutes. [01:21:46] Speaker A: Silly me, thinking we were going to keep this under an hour. No. You know, I do just want to reiterate that one of the biggest reasons why I did this podcast is because I want people to understand that even the people that you have on a pedestal were just like you at one time in their life. You know, And I. I don't want people to feel like, you know, oh, this person became a vice president, or this person became a CEO or this person became. They must have always known that that's what they wanted to do, or school must have always come easy for them, or what they're doing comes. No, no. It's hard. We work hard, and we let serendipity carry us sometimes, you know, and we meet people and opportunities fall into our laps, and sometimes saying yes is the best idea that you could have, and sometimes it's not. I mean, we're. We're all learning as we go. So that's why I ask people all the time, what. What. What was your origin story like? What was this like? What was that like? You know, because I really want to emphasize that. Ruined. We were all once broke, hungry, you know, stashing food in our bags from the buffet for later. I mean, we all started in the same place. [01:23:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:23:07] Speaker A: As you are now. And it's a mix of persistence and special skills that get you to where you want to go. So just trust the process and do whatever you need to do to keep yourself, you know, positive. And. Because when you're depressed, you don't want to do anything, so you need to find. I think the first step for me, especially in the last few months, has been, let's get back upright. Let. Let's do the things that make us happy. Let's. Let's listen to music from my childhood. You know, I. Nothing I love better than an 80s or 90s Peloton ride, you know, and. And do. Do the things that fill your cup. And then once you have that motivation back, the energy will come and you will. You will start, you know, progressing, but you have to. You have to take care of yourself. And again, we were the Same way we are. The same way. [01:24:05] Speaker B: It's like when you're on a plane, right when they're doing the instructions at the beginning. If you have a child, you put. Put the mask on yourself first because. Because you can't help someone else if you don't have oxygen. [01:24:18] Speaker A: That's right. [01:24:19] Speaker B: Right. So fill up your cup first before you can help others. [01:24:23] Speaker A: Or as the Southwest Airlines flight attendants say, if you have a child, if you're with a child or you're with someone who's acting like a child, put your mask on first. They are the funniest. The Southwest Airlines flight attendants are the funniest. I. I appreciate them. [01:24:39] Speaker B: All right, well, I think I'm just going to leave that there. And thank you so much for everything that you do. And I can't wait to see all of the people that you bring in to inspire. And please continue. Please continue. [01:24:56] Speaker A: Thank you. I will say season two, little sneak preview. One of the things I want to do that I'm working on scheduling right now is, is I am scheduling little mini episodes that talk about some of the challenges that women face when they're looking for jobs. And so I want to talk to people about how to negotiate, how to negotiate your first job offer. How do you overcome this, Overcome getting in your own way? And believe me, I'm an expert. I am an expert at getting in my own way. So how do you stop doing that, that. So that you can just. Just apply for the job and go for it or apply for the promotion and go for it? And how do you. What, what about. If you have concerns about work, life balance, how do you overcome that? So that's something that I want to do. So I. I'm going to continue doing the stories of wonderful people like yourself, Diane, and all the other guests that I've mentioned so far. I have a few people who are coming up that I'm going to interview, but I also want to talk a little bit more about self soft skills, and I want to talk a little bit more about the process and the challenges that come up and how. How you can overcome them. [01:26:06] Speaker B: So that's how to do an elevator pitch. Something like that. Yeah. [01:26:09] Speaker A: Yes. That's a great one. That's a great one. [01:26:12] Speaker B: All right. [01:26:13] Speaker A: Well, Diane, thank you. This was so fun. [01:26:18] Speaker B: It wasn't like we were working at all. It was fun. [01:26:21] Speaker A: Right? Thank you to today's guest host, returning champion Diane Bovenkamp. [01:26:26] Speaker B: Champion. I'm the champion. [01:26:32] Speaker A: Thank you again to Dr. Diane Bovenkamp from the BrightFocus Foundation. She is a wonderful human being and pretty darn good interviewer, I have to say. Thank you for listening. We have big plans for season two. If you like us, please rate and review us and subscribe on any any of the thank you again to Dr. Diane Bovenkamp from the BrightFocus foundation for stepping in and being the interviewer today. And thank you all for listening. If you like what you've heard so far, please subscribe and if you're feeling generous, give us a five star review. Anywhere you get your podcasts, leave some comments for us, it makes us feel good and we'll see you next time. Thanks for listening.