Engineering A Medical Affairs Career - Dr. Julie Whitcomb

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello, and welcome to today's episode of the Bench to Boardroom podcast. I'm your host, Cynthia Steele. And today's guest is Dr. Julie Wickham, who is currently the head of medical affairs at Inovia, Inc. Now, I can't talk about Julie without first thanking her for the presence of this podcast, because Julie and I have been friends for a couple of years, and it was thanks to her, her saying to me, the next time I see you, you better have one episode recorded. You have been talking for too long about doing this thing. I want to see you actually do it. And I did. And today she's my guest. So thank you, Julie, for that motivation. So Julie has a bachelor's in mathematics and a PhD from the University of Minnesota in mechanical engineering. She was also a Fulbright scholar during graduate school, and so she was able to do her research for about a year and a half in Munich. And then she started as an industry scientist and then moved on to being a clinical liaison and finally into medical affairs as an MSL. So Julie has managed to bridge two very popular career paths for young trainees. So if you're interested in either of those or both, this is a good episode to listen to. Julie and I talk about growing your emotional intelligence, especially in graduate school, and how more students and more educational programs really should emphasize EQ, how networking at conferences can help you find your next job, or in our case, help you find a new friend. And she turned the tables on me. She got me talking about my dissertation research as well. So towards the end, you will get to hear a little bit of yours truly geeking out about her dissertation research and her postdoc. So, without further ado, my interview with Dr. Julie Whitcomb. You, Dr. Julie Wickham. Welcome to bench to boardroom. [00:02:11] Speaker B: Thanks for having me, Cynthia. It's a pleasure to be here. [00:02:14] Speaker A: Now, our audience might know you already from the panel discussion that we had after glaucoma 360 a couple of weeks ago. And you joined me, along with Dr. Cheryl Rowe Redelman and Dr. Barbara Roscoe, to talk about the innovations that we learned about in San Francisco. But I'm so excited to have you by yourself, and we can talk about your career. [00:02:38] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, I'm glad to share. And it's a great thing to talk about coming scientists and engineers or people in the science regime. I don't know. It's exciting. I'm glad you're doing this. [00:02:52] Speaker A: Oh, thank you. Good to have you. So, for our guests who don't know you, can you please introduce yourself well. [00:02:57] Speaker B: I'm Julie Whitcomb, and I have a PhD in mechanical engineering. And I currently work at Inovia, which is a small ophthalmology biotech company, and I run medical affairs. [00:03:10] Speaker A: Awesome. And the thing that stands out to me first on your LinkedIn profile is you're a Fulbright scholar. Or is it present tense or past tense? [00:03:22] Speaker B: I mean, guess you're always a Fulbright scholar. [00:03:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I would leave with that. [00:03:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I guess it is present. It's present and past. I mean, I'm not right now currently pursuing it, but, yeah, back when I was in graduate school, I was getting my master's, and I kind of cut this deal with my advisor at the time that if I continue to get my PhD, if I got a Fulbright or I got a scholarship where I could study abroad, that I would continue and get my PhD. Because typically most engineers don't get phds, they just get masters. [00:03:56] Speaker A: Oh, is that right? I didn't know that. [00:03:57] Speaker B: It's very common. [00:04:00] Speaker A: Is that because they go into industry after getting their masters? [00:04:04] Speaker B: Yeah. In most cases, for engineers, it's all you really need, unless you want to go into academia. And at that time, I was not really interested into going into academia. I wanted to be in. [00:04:16] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. So then what made you choose Munich for your. [00:04:22] Speaker B: Well, that's a funny story. So it was really because I wasn't really proficient in any other language. And some of the categories for Fulbright scholars was. And at my level, you can do a teaching Fulbright or you can do research, and mine would be research because I was in graduate school and Germany was one of the countries that didn't have a language requirement. You could learn when you arrived. And my advisor actually knew someone that he had met, I believe, at probably an arvo conference. He was really good at networking at those conferences. And so he met someone that was at the technical University of Munich that was doing engineering and ophthalmology research. And so I connected with them. We came up with a project idea and then submitted that. And there's more likelihood for you to get accepted when you have both, someone like a sponsor or someone that knows you. And that, along with the language thing, was kind of a double whammy. So that's kind of how I chose Germany. [00:05:18] Speaker A: That's awesome. I was one of the only kids in my choir who had taken German. So when we went on a tour of central Europe, all of my friends who had taken Spanish in high school were begging me to help them order anything, help them go shopping, help them navigate, and I just thought it was so funny. Mean, in retrospect, I live in Florida. I took the most useless language. I mean, I should have taken Spanish for all the trips I take, or Miami or any of these places where Spanish would have done me so much better. But I was grateful at that time to have taken German. It really made things a lot. [00:05:56] Speaker B: I mean, I probably should have taken Spanish, too, because it's much more prevalent. I live in southern California. It's the same. But I actually took French in high school. So the funny thing is, now all of my French has been replaced by German, and so I think I only have capacity for two languages. [00:06:15] Speaker A: That's right. You have to push something else out, bring something new in. [00:06:19] Speaker B: It's harder to learn a language when you're older anyway. [00:06:21] Speaker A: It is. It definitely is, I guess. How did that work? So you negotiate this, traveling abroad with your advisor. At that time, were you working on ophthalmology, or was that. [00:06:36] Speaker B: Yeah. So that's kind of the reason how I stumbled into ophthalmology is because my graduate work, ideally, when I was in graduate school, my ideal job was to work at Medtronic, because I was at the University of Minnesota, and medtronic is very large there, so they have a very big influence, the cardiovascular space, sure. But my advisor was doing ophthalmology research. He had a project with a model, and then I was doing some more, like applied mechanics to ophthalmology. And so it was continuation of ophthalmology research. I did research on retinal blood flow, and so looked at, I actually saw patients, and that was my first exposure to actually seeing the clinical side of things versus more basic science and tissue engineering, less lab stuff, but more with patients. [00:07:27] Speaker A: So neat. And I actually think, in a lot of ways, the eye is kind of an engineer's dream in the sense that there's so much, especially in the front part of the eye, that's so pressure dependent, and there's mechanosensors. And when you take a patient's pressure, you have to keep in mind how thick the front of the eye that layer, actually is because of a certain amount of rigidity. And if there's not enough rigidity, you can develop a coning of the front of your eye. I mean, it's absolutely fascinating to me. But I got to tell you, Julie, when I think about engineering, and certainly I know some engineers in the glaucoma space, their posters, to me, look like the matrix. I mean, it's like equations, and it makes no sense to me whatsoever. [00:08:18] Speaker B: The one thing that's really cool is when I was in graduate school a while ago, there was a small subgroup of engineers that did ocular biomechanics. And now I think they have a specific section where they go. And it's, there's a lot of great research. I know, like Crawford Downs does it and then Ross ether, like all those people. There's some great research out of Singapore too, and there's a lot of great research that's going. Actually, I think the only problem is that it doesn't necessarily have that clinical aspect. It's like all research and making it apply to something that has either a solution clinically or some sort of effect is where that missing link is. And I think it will come eventually. But my research was a small piece. And sometimes I see some of my research being used. Like I did stuff on iris biomechanics. And it's funny, some of the research I did when I was in graduate school, we're using the same drugs here now at the company I work at. So it's like it comes for a workout. [00:09:18] Speaker A: Oh, that's awesome. How cool. So then obviously you interacted with other students and other people at the university while you were there. So was there anything, what was different about their programs or how they do their master's or PhD programs versus what we do here in the US? Just curious. [00:09:38] Speaker B: Well, I mean, to be honest, I didn't take many classes per se. I did more research, so I was more in the lab and then working with patients. But actually one thing that I noticed is that they're much more global. So I was working in a lab with people from Russia, from Germany. So they have a lot more people that come in globally to do research. And then I also worked with the medical students and there was ones from Greece. So one thing that I noticed is that I guess in any type of graduate program, they're pretty global, but it was even more prevalent when I was there. And I think also another thing too, is they're a lot younger when they start because they can go into the graduate program. They don't need that necessarily. That undergraduate, it kind of all melds in together. That's one thing slightly different. [00:10:23] Speaker A: Right. That's interesting. And are the expectations kind of similar? Are the people that we talk to who are still students now? I mean, would german students have similar grievances, long hours, bad pay, all of that? Or are they more relaxed there? [00:10:42] Speaker B: I feel like they're more relaxed. And maybe it's culture. Know where behooves you to have like a stein of beer afterwards or something. But it is definitely different. It doesn't seem as stressful. I think it also is like the way that Europe kind of views work and they have like a balance and I don't know, it just seems like in academia or any type of industry here, you work all the time. So that was nice. I feel like I had a lot of weekends to go travel and see other parts of Europe that were, I was on a student budget, so I didn't have a lot of money because I had a stipend. But I did get to see and travel and see a lot of different places, which was really fun for me, honestly. That was one of the reasons why I wanted to travel abroad and I really enjoyed. [00:11:32] Speaker A: Amazing. And, you know, especially when you're those, those train trips, those road trips, I mean, you go to different countries and it's not that. Know, we think my, my cousin lived in London for about a year and a half, and I swear every weekend, Shane, her husband, were in Norway, they were in Paris, they were touring different parts of Europe or Croatia, where we're from, and it was just wild to see. And I had to ask her, once you work right, and she said, these trips are fast and if you do it right, they don't have to be super expensive. I was just so impressed at the variety of vacations that I saw versus here in the states. Again, in Florida, if you want to drive somewhere, I mean, go to Georgia, go to Atlanta again. And that's about, know, maybe some of the barrier islands on the coast, but it's not know, let's go hiking in Norway this weekend, or let's go have some wine in France. Like, oh, my gosh, it just sounds so exotic and wonderful. [00:12:39] Speaker B: Yeah. There was this program that the university, which is really awesome, that they would give you get a lift ticket, a pretzel and a beer for, I think maybe like €30. It was really cheap. And you drive from Munich to the south border of Austria in Germany and you'd go skiing for the day and then they would bust you back. So all of those things were included for really affordable price. Of course, if you had, I had to rent skis, but it was something that was really nice. I would never be able to do that. [00:13:12] Speaker A: Yeah, right. I guess from Irvine you could go up to big bear or something to go. [00:13:19] Speaker B: I feel like it's so much farther, too. [00:13:23] Speaker A: Traffic is so much. [00:13:24] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And the lift tickets are so much more expensive. [00:13:28] Speaker A: Sure. [00:13:28] Speaker B: But that's how many years ago. So there is inflation involved, so I can't say it's apple to Apple. [00:13:36] Speaker A: True. So then when you came back to the US, was it a bit of a culture shock or were you just like, okay, I'm home. [00:13:47] Speaker B: Actually, when I was going to come home, I applied. So my Fulbright only lasted a little over a year. I did do an intensive language course before I arrived to learn German, and then I applied. I really enjoyed it. And then I applied for. It's called a daad, which is like a deutsch. I can't remember the acronym stands for, but it's like the german equivalent of another fellowship. And I did get that, and I was debating if I should do that for another year to extend my research, but then it would have delayed my PhD another year. And in hindsight, honestly, it probably wouldn't have mattered. It probably would have been a great experience, but I was itching to finish get a job. I feel like everyone kind of is in that space, but hurrying to be an adult. I don't think. It's not necessarily the path that you need to do. I thought it was something that. I think it's one of my regrets that I didn't stay on longer because there are so many things that potentially you can expand your network, and most companies now are global, and there's a ton of biotech companies that have a european influence. So that's something that I wish I would have done. So in a way, I was a little bit, like, kind of sad to come back home and finish it, but I did want to finish my research and I really didn't like what I was doing with my advisor. So I think I had a little bit of remorse. It's probably the way I would describe it. [00:15:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Did your German PI end up being like an outside committee member or did he serve anything on your dissertation? [00:15:19] Speaker B: No, I don't think so. It was actually a she. Yeah. No, I don't think she did, actually, no. [00:15:27] Speaker A: Okay. [00:15:28] Speaker B: But my work and research was part of my dissertation. [00:15:32] Speaker A: Yeah, that would make sense. [00:15:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:35] Speaker A: So just out of curiosity, because I ask everyone this question, but while you were in school, did you have a give it all up and run away fantasy job? [00:15:47] Speaker B: I don't think so. I think when I graduated, I didn't really know what I wanted. I wanted to work at a company that had a medical device, but I wanted to stay in ophthalmology, and that was hard and I didn't end up doing that, but that was something that I was looking for. And I did have a stipulation too. I wanted to move. I wanted to move either to California or New York. And I guess my ideal everything about me is based on travel, apparently. But I wanted to live in New York first and then I'd end up in California. But I never actually got a position. I applied, I think, to Regeneron and Allergan, and then I didn't get the Regeneron job, but I got the allergan job, which is now Abbey. Yes. [00:16:30] Speaker A: Where did you grow up, out of curiosity? [00:16:32] Speaker B: I grew up in Minnesota. [00:16:34] Speaker A: Okay. So hence the allure of the big. [00:16:37] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I just kind of wanted to live outside of the mean. I have always been kind of an explorer and adventurer, and I like seeing different parts of the world and the country. [00:16:51] Speaker A: The weather can't get much worse than Minnesota in the winter. Right? [00:16:55] Speaker B: That's true. And in reality, too, like, what I would be working, like, what, three m medtronic? Those are the main, I mean, they call it medical alley, but in all honesty, I really liked ophthalmology. So there's not much ophthalmology companies in Minnesota. [00:17:11] Speaker A: Yeah, ophthalmology is awesome. So tell me how you got that first job at. [00:17:18] Speaker B: It was, it was someone my advisor knew. He networked. He met someone at Arvo again. So that's one thing that I recommend to people that are coming up is to go to conferences and congresses and then network, know, exchange business cards. But he exchanged business cards with someone at Allergan. And when I was looking for a job, I emailed them and said that I was looking for a job. And then ironically, the person that had my business card or contact, they gave it to someone else in another department and they were looking for someone that would do modeling. And I had some mathematical modeling experience. And so that's how they, I think, went with me. But in reality, I think the type of modeling they want is not the type of modeling I did because it was like a buzword, but it got the industry and it got me into a group of part of R and D that I didn't even know existed, to tell you the truth. [00:18:14] Speaker A: Yeah, that's awesome. And in fact, I wanted to have you on for multiple reasons. But one of them is because you've actually done two jobs that a lot of trainees both know about and are interested in. And one is doing bench research at a company, and then the other one is medical affairs. Being an MSL, it's almost a misnomer. And I definitely want to talk to you about this, that once you go into a company, if you're in R and D, then you stay in R and D. Or if you're in clinical, you stay in clinical. And some people feel like there's no crossover between, say, you couldn't do both jobs that you did. So I guess when you started at Allergan, I guess, what was it like working there versus working in a lab? And then did you want to stay there? Okay, so you were happy? [00:19:10] Speaker B: No, I was not happy, though, in actuality, I did all three. I transitioned from R and D to clinical development, to medical affairs. And in reality, after probably my first year, I realized R and D was not where I wanted to be. I didn't. Doing animal research. I didn't like having to. I mean, basically use fact. Every time I do a study, it would be on animals. And I didn't really enjoy that. I didn't enjoy the fact that the data didn't really correlate to what you see at the endpoint. And I don't know, the type of people that are in R and D tend to not be a very extrovert, and they're kind of a little bit more introvert. They're your typical scientists, and I think I have a different personality. But it actually was a hard transition for me. It took me maybe the second year, probably not the first year, I'd say the second year, I realized I didn't want to. And then I started researching other potential jobs that I liked, and then I saw MSL, and I had a hard time actually transitioning to R D, to the medical affairs, because, like you said, most people don't want you to transition. They think that you don't have enough experience, et cetera. But in reality, I feel like it does help, but that's my perspective, because my path. But so how I transitioned out of R D is that I took a leap of faith, and I quit my job. And just gonna. I'm going to find a job. And then, actually, one of my colleagues at Allergan needed some help in their clinical development. They hired me as a contractor. And so then I contracted with the clinical development group for a few years, and that got me to have more experience with working with doctors, working with clinical sites, working on clinical protocols, working on clinical training, all these things where it's more like an MSL job where you have the hdp interaction. And then when I got my first job into medical affairs, someone took faith in me because they saw that I had the knowledge and the, I guess, personality. And I'm very grateful for that person that took a chance on someone who didn't necessarily have medical affairs experience, because you got to start somewhere you're never going to be. My biggest pet peeve is when people say you don't have experience, because how do you get experience without having someone give you a chance? [00:21:38] Speaker A: Totally agree. [00:21:39] Speaker B: And so for me, that's something when I see younger people trying to get into industry in any type of job, as long as they have the passion, really the independence to do things on their own in curiosity, I think that it's like kind of a drive that you want to learn more and you're curious and you're willing to take the extra steps to maybe do a little bit more research, how to understand things. [00:22:05] Speaker A: No, I totally agree. And in fact, I always make the argument, if you have a PhD, you have some of the smartest people who know this particular subject inside and out. It's very easy to learn the rules of clients. You can learn what your budget is, what your per diem is, what you're allowed to say, what you're not allowed to say, the channels you need to go, the channels you may need to navigate in order to get a paper to somebody or to respond to a question. Those rules are easy compared to understanding the nitric oxide pathway, the Rokinase pathway, any of the things that to me. [00:22:45] Speaker B: The soft skills are easier to learn. I think a lot of that is understanding someone's EQ, if they're capable of having a conversation and creating that relationship, because I've seen the opposite end of the spectrum where someone is really intelligent and they understand the science, but then they have a hard time communicating with that. So there is a special type of person that does that. And for me, I think that was something that I feel like I have both of those skill sets. You have to see both. But I am a firm believer that you can train that. And understanding the science, to me, is the harder uphill battle to learn. But phds in general, that's what you do, and you're given a topic and you have to research and understand it. So you have to be novel in trying to figure out that research. You can't just have the answer given to you. I don't know, I'm a PhD. Maybe I'm biased, but I think that's one thing that is taught when you're in graduate school, is that ability to do research and to learn. [00:23:52] Speaker A: Yeah. What I think, too, is that I completely agree with you. And I would argue that in a lot of ways as students, and I've brought this up on this podcast before, but students are taught how to give research seminars, and that's it. So there's never any training, really, in writing a good email, in maybe converting your cv to a resume, how to do an elevator pitch. Can you explain research to somebody in a minute or less? And it is so interesting because even in business school, they didn't really teach us a lot about delivering bad news or a crisis happens at a company, and you've got a press conference in a half an hour. What do you say? There was never anything like that. It was more just these podium talks. There's a lot of emphasis on podium talks. [00:24:49] Speaker B: That's true. Yeah. I think that's a point. Because what's one thing that I think I've learned is, I don't know, it's like the soft skills of delivery. Because I think what happens a lot, and even myself, I was probably in that category where I would dive too much into the weeds and being able to give an elevator pitch, like you said, or something that creates a story. And I think one person that told me when I was at Allergan said that it's not about the data, it's about the story. And I think she was completely correct, because if you can deliver, you can deliver bad data as long as you have a story of why it's bad or per se is not something favorable. So I think that storytelling is something that's kind of missed with scientists and a lot of people that do research because it's important. [00:25:41] Speaker A: I completely agree. And I think development of any drug has a story. How your drug works has a story. Here's the problem in this disease, and here's how my drug or my device takes care of that. And then here are some outcomes that we've seen. I mean, it's a very logical beginning, middle, and end. But I like what you said because it's an acquired skill. I'll dive into the weeds as soon as you want me to. I already have a foot in the weeds. But then you learn, as you do these interactions, you learn that there are some doctors who really just want to ask you why it's so expensive, why it's not covered by you learn to maybe step back from the weeds and say, okay, let's figure out where you're at first, and then we can guide the conversation. So you said you think EQ can be taught, as someone in your company, how do you try to educate people on some of these soft skills or how to help? [00:26:42] Speaker B: Well, I don't know if I said that. I think that EQ has harder things to teach in a way, but, yeah, I think part of it is understanding that your audience and observing, it's more about observation versus reaction, and it's kind of slowing the process down and understanding what your audience wants. And that is something that, in a way, it's just observing. In my opinion, you just have to observe your audience because like you said, a lot of times doctors don't care about the data. They just want to know why it's expensive or they already have an agenda. Typically, most people ask the questions when they want to know the answer if you're not giving them the answer that they want. And sometimes maybe you just need. I think that's part of the process, is just having that skill of listening. [00:27:33] Speaker A: True. [00:27:35] Speaker B: I don't know how you teach that. [00:27:36] Speaker A: Honestly, though, I think that was good because you said, slow down. And I think that's exactly right. Because especially in academia, again, after you're done with a research in progress or any sort of research presentation, someone asks you a question, you feel instinctively like you have to jump in right away and give them an answer. Especially since I think we've both, and probably anyone listening has given those presentations where that one person is going to ask a question. And if you don't start to answer, they will jump in and they will. Maybe just to hear themselves talk, maybe just to try to clarify, maybe to kind of stick it to you a little bit. And so it's easy to react. [00:28:22] Speaker B: Yeah. That complex of being, like the smartest person in the room type of thing. You know what I mean? Yes. [00:28:28] Speaker A: And sometimes the smartest person in the room just takes a breath, gives a thought, and then addresses what the question is. And importantly, is also willing to say, I actually don't know that answer, but I can look it up for you and I'll get back to you. [00:28:46] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, sometimes not knowing is the best answer because if you give them an answer that's not correct, then they will always remember you're the person that gave them the bs. But I think that's also a life skill. When you're younger, you always want to give the teacher the right answer or something. Maybe if you're a good student. But then later in life, you realize sometimes not knowing is okay and that you just need the time to learn those skills to answer the question. Absolutely. I think every time, just like in life, too, dealing with different physicians or key opinion leaders, it's just understanding their style of what they want. Some people want data. Other people want more of a relationship. And. Yeah, I don't know, that's just something I think being in the industry for a little bit, too, helps with. [00:29:44] Speaker A: Absolutely. I may be speaking out of line here, but I also feel like, especially as women in male dominated fields, we feel like there's a little extra pressure to have the answer, especially to have the right answer and maybe a very detailed right answer. Because you need to prove yourself. [00:30:06] Speaker B: You want to be heard. [00:30:09] Speaker A: Yeah, because especially if you say, I don't actually know that there's probably someone in the room who's either willing to mansplain or they're willing to jump in and teach you something, little lady. And that was always absolutely infuriating. And in fact, some of my favorite moments is when I got to forgive my french, I got to shut that shit down. No, I know what I'm talking about. I know why I'm here. I need you to listen to me. And usually it was those moments that just stick with me. And when I think about them now, it just makes me laugh because the sales rep would be on the side, like, nervous. I can't believe you did that. Well, you bring in somebody to be the subject matter expert, and I'm not in your town to listen to a doctor lecture me on something I already know. So, yeah, I'm going to assert myself. [00:31:06] Speaker B: And that always felt so good that the customer is always right. [00:31:11] Speaker A: Yeah, well, because if the customer is blatantly wrong, then. [00:31:15] Speaker B: Actually that's a good. [00:31:16] Speaker A: Point, because as an MSL, your job is to educate and not to sell. So, I mean, if you're there to sell, then, yeah, you kind of have to soft shoe a little bit and maybe be a little bit more careful. But I mean, if you're there to explain exactly how something works, and you've read the papers, you've done the deep dives, then yeah, that is your job, to educate people. And I don't know, maybe I'm speaking out of turn here, but I always felt like that was something that was very important to me, to just assert myself as, no, I'm here to talk to you about science, and then I'm going to leave you back to your patients. [00:31:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:59] Speaker A: Did you find that in engineering, too? That sounds like a very male dominated field, too. [00:32:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I was probably the one person from the United States and a female in my class when I was in graduate. Mean, I think it didn't really affect me because I was an undergrad, I was in mathematics. So I was always kind of like the minority in that thing. So I don't really remember it being too much of an issue. I just remember having all of my study groups were always like, men and majority of my classes, when I did take some more bioengineering classes, that's when it more diversified and there was more female to male ratio. Yeah, I mean, at that time, I don't think it was anything that was the norm. Math and science, there's not many women, so I didn't really think of it as anything different. But hopefully the needle has shifted now it's more equality between the two sexes. [00:33:02] Speaker A: I think so. But you're right, because in ophthalmology, too, for sure, you go to Arvo and it's gotten better. It's definitely gotten better. But my small field of ophthalmology, especially in the beginning, it was so predominantly male. And I guess you're right, I didn't even think of it at the time. It just kind of made sense, like, well, yes, of course. But now that I look back on it, I think it's actually really nice to see more women getting ro ones in that field and getting tenure, having their own labs, training their own female postdocs. That just really makes me happy. [00:33:42] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I know that there was this rumor when a lot of my colleagues were looking for. They're finishing their postdoc and they were looking for a professorship. They all complained, like, oh, if you're female, you get the job easily, because they're just typically in the staff for most mechi programs, there was not many women. So they have their diversity inclusion metrics that they need to fulfill. So I guess in that sense, I probably would have gotten a good school to be a professor. I think it's just an industry in general. It is what it is. I mean, I would like to see more CEOs in the C suite be female. It's other than the CEO that does HR, whatever the C suite is for. HR is. [00:34:34] Speaker A: I totally agree. I totally agree. [00:34:36] Speaker B: That's why I see every company. It's always for human relations or public relations. It's always the female. And I'm like, I'd like to see a CSO or CEO or CFO. [00:34:49] Speaker A: I totally agree. There was a statistic I saw at one point, it was like, 30% of biotech companies have a woman in the C suite. And, yeah, that's just abysmal. And you're right. They probably are all like, the head of HR or maybe legal counsel. Maybe you have. [00:35:10] Speaker B: I feel like the ones that make the decision especially in a biotech company. Are the CMO, the CSO COO, or the CEO? Typically. Not that I've never seen it, but it's very rare. [00:35:24] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So we talked about soft skills that you can acquire in grad school, but is there anything else that you think for those who know that they're not interested in careers in academia, they know they're interested in industry careers. Can you think of anything else that they could do? Maybe this is a good place to talk about networking at conferences. What can they do to kind of prepare themselves for an industry position? Or what other skills could they acquire now before they start applying? [00:36:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I think is conferences and present your material and then not only just go there to present your material, but walk around and see other people's presentations and posters, engage in conversations with people with industry. I mean, I only know ophthalmology, so I only went to ophthalmology meetings and I went to some bioengineering conferences that were a little bit more student focused. But try to go to those bigger ones where you get a mix of industry, a mix of academia, and then make those connections and have some sort, like have a QR code with your name so that you can make those connections. Because when I look back on my past, most of my positions I've got even out of grad school were based on someone that either my advisor knew or that I met in a previous job. So I think that is very important, especially this day and age where it's harder to get a job and you can just submit your resume using AI. It's very hard to do that. It's not impossible to get a job that way. But I'd say the majority of jobs are based on relationships. Presenting it never hurts anyone. I think it never hurts anyone. I think the more experience you have on podium or on a poster also helps your communication skills, which no matter if you're an R and D to medical affairs or even to clinical development, you always need to communicate with your colleagues and you're going to be representing material. I think that's one thing that they never really, at least I didn't know in graduate school, is that as a scientist, you always need to communicate your data, no matter what area, because if you don't communicate it, then you're just doing research in a hole. So that would be advice. [00:37:49] Speaker A: That's totally true. Although some people's advisors may want you to do your research in a hole or research in a vacuum. [00:37:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Then they're not a good advisor then. [00:38:00] Speaker A: No, I think that's exactly right. And I liked your idea of having the QR code. So I recently wrote an article on LinkedIn where I suggested, even if you're in academics, just get a business card made. They're really cheap now. And then put a QR code in the back with a link to either your resume, your LinkedIn page, your cv, whatever it is, how you want to showcase yourself. That's a great way to do it, because at the end of the day, you've done this, too. You have a stack of business cards. You just kind of go through them and say, who did I meet today? And that's so much easier than carrying around, like, someone's paper copy of their resume that probably is going to get smashed by your laptop. And so, no, it's easier to just have a card and then you remember who that person was. [00:38:46] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think that's free. I think I have an app called QR me that you can just write your own and then input your information in your phone if you're more of a digital person. But people do still like business cards. I tend to tend to lose them. But everyone, I think having both options are actually really good. [00:39:05] Speaker A: Totally. And research conferences are a phenomenal place to network because it's so easy to walk up to somebody and say, what do you do? Whether they're at a booth or they're at a poster. I mean, people love to talk about themselves. It's such an easy thing to go up to a poster and say, tell me about your research. And if it's an industry postdoc or it's an industry person, then that's the easiest way in. You just start a conversation and you don't have to be shy about it. You can talk science all you want. Stay in your comfort zone. That's fine. [00:39:42] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. I agree. [00:39:44] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. [00:39:46] Speaker B: I think in general, too, in your career, it's always good to meet new people. And you said, go out of your comfort zone. In general, I think it's just a good piece of life advice. [00:39:56] Speaker A: Yeah, break out of your comfort zone. And I will admit I'm not super great at doing that when it comes to LinkedIn or any of the social media stuff. I get very shy about posting things on me, too. [00:40:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm in that not. I can post certain amount, but I feel like if you overshare, then you become that person. Right. You're always posting every week, and then it's like, is that your second job? But maybe I'm just too old or I'm not of that generation. But it does help, though. I do notice the more that I post, and I like to post things that have actual content. Not I'm just randomly posting. But I do get noticed more by recruiters, by other colleagues, or potential, just in general. I do see that there is an uptick of my personal interest, and I need to be more aware of my brand. And I think that is important, especially if you want to advance your career. [00:40:58] Speaker A: First of all, actually, I think your LinkedIn posts are great because you always have a very thoughtful paragraph about the meeting that you went to and who you saw and what you learned, and then there's always, like, a nice collage of photos that accompanies it. So I think your LinkedIn posts are fire. [00:41:14] Speaker B: I like pictures. I'm not like, a very person that likes pictures because who likes to read a bunch of text. [00:41:20] Speaker A: True. [00:41:20] Speaker B: Although I am in medical science where it is text and stuff is important, but pictures speaks a thousand worlds. [00:41:29] Speaker A: Absolutely. But I think it was bad that. [00:41:31] Speaker B: I might be seeing pictures of people that they don't want their picture posted. [00:41:36] Speaker A: Of course. No, but it was Sarah Snyder on this podcast who said, you have to work on your own brand, because if you don't, that's your brand. [00:41:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Because who else will? Right? [00:41:47] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. So your brand is going to be whatever that ancient photo of yours is that's out in the stratosphere somewhere. And whatever you put on LinkedIn, that's what people see, and that becomes your brand. So you might as well put some effort into it and make it. [00:42:06] Speaker B: I'm not in that category. Who has a publicist yet? [00:42:10] Speaker A: I know. I wish I could afford a publicist that would make life so much easier. [00:42:14] Speaker B: To do all your social media posts. [00:42:16] Speaker A: But, yeah, I don't know. In that category, I tried to get my husband to do it. He also produces this for me, and he was like, I don't know your world at all. [00:42:26] Speaker B: He'd probably be very good at it. [00:42:28] Speaker A: Say what? [00:42:29] Speaker B: He'd be very good at it. I assume so good at it. [00:42:31] Speaker A: But he just says, like, I don't know your world. I don't know what people want to learn about and focus about. Okay. [00:42:38] Speaker B: You QC it. He creates the first draft, you QC it, and then there you go. [00:42:42] Speaker A: See? All right, he's going to listen to this later, so let that be a message to him. [00:42:48] Speaker B: Yeah, sorry. [00:42:51] Speaker A: No, it's all good. He's a good sport. So when it comes to people who want to. So when people interview with you or when you get resumes, what could people do or put in their resumes to kind of make them stand out to you? What do you look for in new applicants? [00:43:07] Speaker B: Well, resumes are difficult, I think, because nowadays you can use chat, GPT, or any sort of AI software to create buzwords. I'd like to see actually applicable things that they've done, like actual task, not just what you see on the JD or the job description and recurring, but actually, of course, products they worked on, things that they've actually done. I think that's important versus just highlighting some of the things that, because I think most recruiters these days use AI to generate their job description. So something that's actually tangible and then for me, in person interviews are really important in really understanding the person and makes people have passion, they have drive, they have that mode or that capability to be self motivated and not. I think I'm the category, I will give you a task. I want to see what you do, not versus that I need to tell you every five minutes what you need to do. So that kind of self, what is that? Isn't that kind of like an MSL or. A lot of medical affairs have that category. You drive your own business. Kind of like that type of mentality I think is important. [00:44:23] Speaker A: Absolutely. Because if you have a team of people all around the country, you can't babysit all of them at the same time. [00:44:30] Speaker B: No. Or just in general. Even if you have tasks, deliverables like abstract or content, which is a lot of times it's like, I just don't have time to do it all. If I did, then I would do it. But having someone do it themselves and giving the direction and coming up with their own kind of creative way of approaching the problem I think is important. [00:44:52] Speaker A: Yeah, agreed. So then, as head of medical affairs, what does a typical week look like for you? [00:44:59] Speaker B: Honestly, working at a small company, it changes every day. [00:45:02] Speaker A: Okay. [00:45:03] Speaker B: Like one day we have this directive and then something chips, which I really like. Sometimes it stresses me out, but actually having that kind of agility is really nice. Around Congress season, it's always typically about the Congress and activities, the content generation for our scientific messaging working also, I feel like I juggle many things all at the same time. So I do medical cons, communications, I do scientific objectives of what our messaging is, the strategy. Also look at content creation, help with commercial. We're recently commercialized, so help with the commercial support. So there's a lot of different kind of hats. And what I tend to do is just go with the most important thing that week or that day. And I try to tackle that. So every day is someone different. And sometimes it even happens when our strategy shifts because of different. We found an announcement or a budget changes, all those things. So there's a lot of emails, though. That's one thing that I didn't realize. A lot of emails, which takes out a lot of time. [00:46:13] Speaker A: Yes, but you're right. [00:46:15] Speaker B: I wish I could have had that course where I learned how to write a good email. But I do have to say, AI does. [00:46:23] Speaker A: I. I like that know, you've worked at large companies and you've worked at small companies, and so do you like the small company atmosphere more? [00:46:32] Speaker B: I've done the large company like a very large company, and each company that I, well, except including one company where I worked at, which was Santon, that was still quite large, that was more global. So that was a different perspective. But I worked at Allergan, I worked at Aerie Santon, and now I Nobia, and each one kind of consecutively gets a little smaller. And the one thing about working in a small company is that you have this opportunity to do things that you wouldn't even think would be under your job description, which is really nice because I think it expands your portfolio, it expands your experience, and then you can really see what you like to do. And I feel like now I'm at a point in my career where I'm really in that area where I really like what I do. I like my job, I like my colleagues, all these things. In the beginning, I was not as the happiest in my position, but it got to me where I am, and I'm really glad that I had the experience to get where I am today. [00:47:26] Speaker A: That's awesome. [00:47:28] Speaker B: I think one thing people forget is that they're not going to get their dream job right away, and if they do, they're really lucky. [00:47:33] Speaker A: True. [00:47:34] Speaker B: I mean, maybe you did. [00:47:35] Speaker A: I don't got, I definitely got a dream job right off the bat because I got to become an MSL. Right. And I got to work for which, and work for somebody who I thought was just incredibly supportive and in fact, his boss is who I work for now. So it all kind of comes that. But the team makes a huge difference, right. And leadership makes a huge difference, because when you work for the right people and there's just a very positive, supportive environment that makes all the difference in the world, it makes you happy with your. And I've. I've worked at places where I haven't been happy with the leadership, and I've worked at places where I've been know with the leadership, and in fact, the person I work with and work for. Now, when I was in MSL, I remember he came to us one day. He would hang out with us for a few hours at every team meeting, and he usually got the floor for like a half hour, hour at every time. And he said to us once, I don't expect any of you to be here after like, three or four years of time. He said, I would be thrilled if you were. That would be amazing, and we love all of you. But very few people take on the role of MSL and make that their career. Now, some people do that. It's a phenomenal career. And I worked with two older gentlemen who. That was their career. They've been doing it for decades and they loved it, and they had a rhythm and they had their kols, and they were very happy. But the rest of us were looking at it as a way to jump start into something else and to take the next step in our careers, whether it was becoming the head of a medical affairs program, which a few of them did, others went into a different disease state and working their way up that way. Someone went into clinical affairs and is now part of clinical development. And I've kind of bounced around. I think I'm still figuring out what my long term ultimate dream job would be. But being an MSL, I think, definitely was a dream job, because, as you said, you get to be exposed to different people, different cities, lifestyles, cultures, different ways of thinking. There's no better education than, like, baptism by fire and being in front of somebody and trying to figure out what do they call you for? What do they want to know about? And then what's the best way to deliver that message? [00:50:21] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. I have really great memories of being an MSL, and they're very great. But life changes. And I think in general, just sticking at one job for a really long period of time, you need change, and whether it be a therapeutic area, it's all up to you, I think. You get exposed to different things, to what you really like. [00:50:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:47] Speaker B: Can I ask you one question, though? You said you did a postdoc, so that was something that I was like, if you get a postdoc, then you for sure going into academia. So how did you decide to get a postdoc? And then did you want to go into industry? [00:51:01] Speaker A: No, I was going to stay in academics. [00:51:03] Speaker B: Oh, really? I didn't know that. [00:51:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I was pretty determined I was going to stay in academics and I ended up doing a postdoc because I really loved my research. I went to the American association of Ocular Pharmacology and Therapeutics meeting last summer and someone from SUNY Rochester posted a slide and it was of, this is going to be so nerdy. It was of the cholesterol biosynthetic pathway and how that works with Rokinase and the small gtp aces. And my heart just soared because that's exactly what I used to work on. And he could see me from the podium and I got this huge grin on my face. He's like, yeah, I knew you'd like this slide. I knew. And I just loved my research and I thought it was so interesting and I thought what I was working on was so neat. So while I was applying for postdoc grants, I ended up teaching for a semester at an undergraduate university near Chicago. And I taught like general biology, which was awful. It was awful. It was like an 08:00 a.m. Class of freshmen. And if I can't get excited about photosynthesis, there's no way I'm going to get anybody else excited about photosynthesis at eight in the morning. And it was a slog. But my favorite classes, I got to teach two human biology classes, which I taught as like anatomy for non majors. And those were fun, those kids were into it, they were really interested. But while I was doing the teaching and I was talking about other people's research, I realized, you know, I want to be the one doing the research. I want to be the one that's actually making this innovation. So when I got a postdoc grant through the VA, I came back. And then what changed my mind was actually networking, going to conferences, and realizing that it doesn't have to be the feast or famine of grant funding. I either had three or four small grants at a time, or I had nothing. And cycled back and forth a few times and it was just me by myself in an apartment. And I was like, I have no one else I can rely on financially. I've got to do something else. And luckily for me, Baushalam was looking for msls, working on something very talking about something very similar that I was working. So, yeah, I mean, how often does. [00:53:33] Speaker B: Your research translate to an actual job? [00:53:37] Speaker A: The stars aligned. Yeah, unbelievably, it was amazing. And in fact, my MSL interview, I know, should be talking to you. My MSL interview, it was hard, but I did manage to take my research and kind of break it down in such a way that here's how your drug works molecularly, because these are the things that I've studied. And they were like, yes, that is what we need. We need someone. And of course, me being a student, I was like talking about phosphorlation events, and you could just see their eyes glazing over like, okay, skip the phosphorylation event, skip the western blot, let's go forward. And that's where the EQ comes in. [00:54:20] Speaker B: Sometimes I see that when you talk to someone, it's like they're glazing over. You're like, okay, well, I'm going to change the subject now. [00:54:26] Speaker A: Okay, never mind. Black box magic happens. And then. [00:54:32] Speaker B: You already had it from the beginning. [00:54:34] Speaker A: Right? But it is fun, and it is fun to be. And I know you and I have talked about this personally, but it is fun to be a scientist that also has social skills because it shocks the hell out of people, doesn't it? [00:54:47] Speaker B: Yeah, they're like, you're scientists. I remember when I was an MSL initially, or when I was doing as a clinical liaison, and I thought I was a sales rep, and I was like, I'm not a sales rep, but thanks. [00:55:05] Speaker A: Right. [00:55:06] Speaker B: That means. [00:55:10] Speaker A: Yeah, people get that, too. [00:55:11] Speaker B: Well, because they're not used. Sales reps should be educated and smart, too. I mean, it's their job to not just sell, but to sell what the actual product is. And the product is science. [00:55:23] Speaker A: And I think doctors BS meters are really good. They expect a lot of their sales reps as well. They expect them to know because they. [00:55:34] Speaker B: Have so many that they deal with. Right, true. [00:55:37] Speaker A: And everyone is going to tell them my drug is better than theirs and then my device is better than theirs. And so they expect you to actually have some real data to back that up. And, I mean, I think that's phenomenal because gone are the days that you could take someone out on your boat and buy them a steak dinner. And then I guess there was no. [00:55:56] Speaker B: Need for medical affairs then, though, back in that know. [00:55:59] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. So. Nope, nope, can't do that anymore. So, no, I love that doctors actually expect so much more from sales reps than possibly they ever used to. [00:56:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. [00:56:09] Speaker A: Especially women. Well, Julie, is there anything else that you want to share with our listeners? Any words of encouragement or what it's like to be a medical affairs director or anything? [00:56:24] Speaker B: No, I think just find what you like to do, because at the end of the day, you don't want work to be work. You want to enjoy it. And I think the one thing that I enjoy about medical fairs is the balance of both. It's the balance of science, data and understanding and really understanding things because I mean that's just ultimately my personality is understanding what is behind the why and stuff. And then I get to interact and hang out with friends. Now when I go to conferences and congresses, I get to see my friends that I don't get to see that often. And then we always have a planned date to when to see each other. So I think that's a positive thing. It's like having that you create that community, which is something that I personally enjoy. And I think that's what makes work less like work for sure. [00:57:10] Speaker A: And again, you never know when your friends are going to have a position. [00:57:14] Speaker B: Or get new opportunity. And then, I mean, that's how we met, right? We have never actually worked together. We are colleagues within the industry and we just started chatting. We have very similar interests, similar experience and you've introduced me to people that I didn't know before. And it's just nice. It's like you're creating this network of friends. [00:57:42] Speaker A: Especially women, because we have to stick together. [00:57:45] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. We already have a little bit more of an uphill battle, but I'm very optimistic that it will just get better in the future, especially for the next generation, same as before. So it's definitely probably easier than ten years ago. [00:58:02] Speaker A: I absolutely agree. And I think if we talked to some of those friends of ours, they would say that, yes, it's expanded by leaps and bounds, but there's still so much more that we can do. [00:58:12] Speaker B: Yeah, whenever time I see a lot of the women ophthalmologists on podium that are later in their career, they always mention when they were doing residency or things like that, how different it was and difficult it was. And I'm really grateful that they carved the pathway for people now where they don't have to struggle as much as they did. Sometimes they even hear about some of the women that were having children. When they're in medical school or working at clinics, it's like they had no time off. [00:58:48] Speaker A: No. [00:58:49] Speaker B: How do you expect that there's like a special time with a mother and a child. These are all things that I think that are better now, but they can definitely be better for sure. [00:59:00] Speaker A: Out of curiosity, were you traveling a lot when your daughter was very young? [00:59:04] Speaker B: Actually, I was very lucky. It was COVID. So I had this wonderful time where I was home, locked down, didn't have to go to the office didn't have to travel, and so I had this majority of her first year of life was at home because of COVID I think my first travel was at a meeting when she was six months old. But I know I have had friends and colleagues that had to travel pretty immediately, and it's hard, especially if you're breastfeeding. I was very lucky that I had. So thank you, COVID. [00:59:40] Speaker A: Sounds terrifying having a newborn at the time of COVID. [00:59:46] Speaker B: During that time, it was. But the post experience was very nice. [00:59:49] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes perfect sense because you could still work and balance everything. I love that. That's great. [00:59:59] Speaker B: Well, you need more COVID for a lot of expected mothers. [01:00:04] Speaker A: COVID did a lot for us, I have to say. A lot of us have a better sense of work life balance thanks to. [01:00:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. But I know a lot of people did not have a good experience. [01:00:14] Speaker A: I don't want to be facetious about a global, um, if people are interested in contacting you, should they reach out through LinkedIn or what's the best way to. If they want to LinkedIn? [01:00:26] Speaker B: Or you can email me, I can give you my emails and you can post. So LinkedIn's easy, so you can just easily message me. I do check that and respond. [01:00:37] Speaker A: Perfect. Thank you so much. Dr. Julie Wickham. It was a pleasure having you today. [01:00:41] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me. Of course. [01:00:44] Speaker A: Bye. I want to thank Dr. Julie Wicklam again for joining us and thank all of you for listening. See you next.